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Black Legion rules review
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 6:51 pm 
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Raptors, much better than bikes as opposed to a choice. So the first fast assault is the raptors typically.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:10 pm 
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I note you have this on long-term:

Revise the allegiance initiative bonus/penalty system for clarity.


Can't we just drop it, now?

This never comes up in games, at all, as far as I'm aware ; In 40k, they completely dropped this rule in the latest code, it constrained army selection and didn't add anything important to the game.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:16 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 22 2008,19:10)
QUOTE
I note you have this on long-term:

Revise the allegiance initiative bonus/penalty system for clarity.


Can't we just drop it, now?

Agreed. All this rule does is unneccesarily restrict choices, and never, ever comes up ingame, since noone ever mixes hated marks.

Drop the rule, it's not needed.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:19 pm 
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Hmm, on balance that's a good point Hena.


EDIT: Hena's edited his post and it's not so clear what I'm agreeing with now.

He said at first something like 'This is only the minimal tournament mods, so it's not nessesary now as it's not affecting the current balance of the list'.

I agree with that, and note that this is indeed something more appropriate for later.




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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:24 pm 
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Sure, it doesn't need to be dropped for the tournament mods, but for a full list review it'd be high up on my list. Culling unneccessary special rules is a pretty vital task.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 8:01 pm 
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Chosen+Obliterators
Well, I'm not sure I like the idea of teleporting AA with terminators anyway. I don't see any major issue with Chosen not having no-brainer AA attached. Upping the points for Obliterators to make them not a default for Chosen will make them prohibitively costly for other formations.

Yes, it is removing something that everyone uses. The fact that everyone uses it is part of the problem. Post me some army lists so I can see how much it will affect people! But it's not like you can't just take those obliterator stands and stick them on another formation if you want to use the models.

Raptors
I'm willing to put their points up by 5 points each if everyone agrees they're too good. Putting up points is less risky than reducing them!

Daemon Princes
Again, the conservative approach would be to remove Inspiring, I suppose.

Hated formations
I was actually thinking the same thing when I was going through the list - we can just do away with this rule altogether. This is the Black Legion after all.

0-X restrictions
I'm don't want to be removing any of these without playtesting, so that's going to have to wait until the full review. That said, I want to remove them and we need to playtest that, so feel free to play without. The assault formation restriction should be the first to go. How many assault formations do you want to field anyway? Let's say we remove the restriction. Want to write up a list and see how many you would realistically want to put in...
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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 8:26 pm 
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0-X lists are bad for one simple reason - they don't scale well. They may be fine for a 3000 point game, but what about a 10000 point game?

0-X per N-Thousand points is a better restriction, but even better is just ballancing the unit/formation properly.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 8:54 pm 
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They may be fine for a 3000 point game, but what about a 10000 point game?


They don't even scale well for games between 2k and 5k.

I did a quick check of the BL list one time; At 2k you can fit the vast majority of your army (~80%) into those 0-x limited formations (Almost all of which are limits that 'paper over' overpowered units, to take Hena's description) plus a few Feral Titans IIRC. At 5k, you can only make ~40% of your army from those 'papered-over'units.

That's a vast gulf, and leads me to expect that the Black Legion will have distinct balance shifts at 2k and 5k, areas which the other army lists in Epic experience no significant shifts in what's possible, as regards army composition.

That, in my opinion, points to an over-emphasis on the 3kpts game in the BL list design, but this is all for a later date. :)




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Ginger
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:57 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ May 22 2008,20:01)
QUOTE
Chosen+Obliterators
Well, I'm not sure I like the idea of teleporting AA with terminators anyway. I don't see any major issue with Chosen not having no-brainer AA attached. Upping the points for Obliterators to make them not a default for Chosen will make them prohibitively costly for other formations.

Yes, it is removing something that everyone uses. The fact that everyone uses it is part of the problem. Post me some army lists so I can see how much it will affect people! But it's not like you can't just take those obliterator stands and stick them on another formation if you want to use the models.
Isn't this just sidestepping the main problem:- ?that Obliterators are just too good for the points? They are better when compared internally with the Chosen, and there is no comparison externally. IIRC Neal's recommendation was to drop some stats and / or to raise the points by 10-15 points. (I would recommend doing both but then I am just an interferring killjoy :p )

Hated formations
I was actually thinking the same thing when I was going through the list - we can just do away with this rule altogether. This is the Black Legion after all.

While I understand the point made - that no-one uses Hated formations - you really cannot remove this rule without some alternative restriction. ?The whole point was to present the player with a choice either to play with the pick of the units across the list, but with an activation disadvantage; or to have a 'toned' down list from a single faction. The fact that no-one wants to chose the first option is just an indication that the mechanism is not providing a sufficiently interesting choice, not that it is a bad idea. As I have said elsewhere, IMHO the list is already slightly overpowered because of the various combinations of factors; removing this restriction would tend to make it more overpowered, not less.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:19 am 
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Firstly, unless anyone is under any misapprehensions I would like to remove all 0-X restrictions. I agree with the points made above. But since doing so could potentially unbalance the list, I don't want to do so without playtesting.

So, all 0-X restrictions are staying put for the time being, but feel free to start playtesting as if they didn't exist and I will definately be looking at these things in the full review.

That said, don't go mad and make an all-Raptor army just yet. Things like Raptors, Obliterators and Chaos Terminators should be comparatively rare in a Black Legion army, so there may still be (scaleable) restrictions.


(Ginger @ May 22 2008,16:57)
QUOTE
Isn't this just sidestepping the main problem:-  that Obliterators are just too good for the points? They are better when compared internally with the Chosen, and there is no comparison externally. IIRC Neal's recommendation was to drop some stats and / or to raise the points by 10-15 points. (I would recommend doing both but then I am just an interferring killjoy :p )

Well, are Obliterators too good for the points in any other formation but the Chosen? Any experience with using them on other formations and them being too cheap?

How many units of Obliterators do people even use? Post your army lists please! Unless people post army lists and playtest experiences it makes it very hard to judge.

While I understand the point made - that no-one uses Hated formations - you really cannot remove this rule without some alternative restriction. ?The whole point was to present the player with a choice either to play with the pick of the units across the list, but with an activation disadvantage; or to have a 'toned' down list from a single faction. The fact that no-one wants to chose the first option is just an indication that the mechanism is not providing a sufficiently interesting choice, not that it is a bad idea. As I have said elsewhere, IMHO the list is already slightly overpowered because of the various combinations of factors; removing this restriction would tend to make it more overpowered, not less.

That would be something to playtest!

Personally, I really don't think anyone would even notice the ancient enemies rule being missing. There really isn't that much difference between a Tzeentch formation and a Nurgle formation, is there?

And it isn't like you can't mix and match. You can have Nurgle or Tzeench formations snuggling up with your Khorne formation, just not Slaanesh.

If the formations are pointed correctly, I don't see much internal balance reason for the rule.
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Steve54
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:32 am 
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Daemon Prince - you already know my opinion on this. I like the loss of TK gain Inspiring idea. If you don't add the Inspiring the unit becomes very expensive for what it is - 50pts + the unit it replaces.

Dreadnought - following the SM. I don't think this needs to be in the minimal tourney mods as it does virtually nothing to make the dread more usable. Its problem is speed not armour.

Other SM changes - fine

Feral/Decimator - Either these or +25pts and move to titan allowance

Obliterator - I've yet to see why its a problem putting them with Termies - I'm not sure that its not a theoryhammer problem rather than a game problem. If there needs to be a change to them I would just drop them from 3 shots to 2.

Greater daemon - I'd be inclined to leave this until the next stage but otherwise maybe slightly drop summoning points

Longterm - agree on these as we have discussed.

Other things -

Is there a reason why you can only add 4 land raiders? If you take 6 chosen then you can't transport them.

Raptors - increase 5 points in line with bikes




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:59 am 
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Obliterator - I've yet to see why its a problem putting them with Termies - I'm not sure that its not a theoryhammer problem rather than a game problem. If there needs to be a change to them I would just drop them from 3 shots to 2.


The problem seems to be that for 75pts, for a ground-pounding AA unit, is about right. Okay their armour /invulnerable save is probably too good for that price, and their CC & FF ability is also a kick in the teeth, but they're only underpriced by ~25pts.

The moment you put them with Terminators, for the same 75pts, they gain access to the Teleport rule... and that is a big upgrade. They go from 'underpriced' to 'notably overpowered'.

Seriously, you're teleporting a unit with better armour than a Terminator unit, better firefight, etc... which also happens to have 50% more AA firepower than an IG Hydra (A vehicle that has a 6+ save, and CC6+, etc, for 50pts).

So yeah, as a teleporting unit, the innate lack of balance in the unit gets thrown into stark relief.

As a minimal ajustment, taking them away from Terminators for the moment should balance things.

Long-term I'd rather than a different unit entirely (Chaos Hunter) be used for AA duties (They Hunter is even described as an old design in Imperial Armour I!) and the Obliterator can return to being a fire-support unit that can teleport (That being their main role in 40k!).




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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:08 pm 
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To me, the problem with obliterators has nothing to do with fielding them with chosen so much as it has to do with them being simply far too good for their price, and in some cases simply overpowered.

FF 2+ is ridiculous, drop it to 3+
Drop the number of shots to 2, I see no reason for it to be 3.

Even with those changes they may well be worth a points boost, given their awesome armour, teleporting abilities and fearlessness. More than anything else it's their Fearless ability that annoys me, as most games turn into a "chase the obliterator" game to be able to wipe out any formation. Then again, this is nothing new, as most guard games turn into "chase the commisars". But then again, most commisars aren't as well protected as an obliterator.

At their current abilities they're probably worth twice what you pay for them. Really!

Too good, too cheap.




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