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| Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=11812 |
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| Author: | pixelgeek [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels |
So a few ground rules/requests 1) If you're going to discuss the effects of the unit(s) could you please post a list so we can see what else you had and what the army structure was 2) Game experience only please. Lets try to keep this as objective as we can. We all know the theoretical problems involved so there is no need to rehash them 3) Tactics would be helpful. Some people use these units and don't have problems with them so lets talk about how they are used in games to see what the issue is As an example, Neal's post in the Ork review thread on the SG forum http://forum.specialist-games.com/topic.a....hpage=2 is a good example. He has his list, what he did with it and how it worked. So now that is out of the way... Some issues 1) Aside from the Feral do these units need to be Fearless? 2) Decimator Cannon... just Ignore Cover instead of MW/Ignore Cover? 3) The Feral really does seem fine to me. Is it a problem in and of itself or is it a problem when used with the Decimators and Death Wheels? 4) Is the Death Wheel problematic at all? |
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| Author: | pixelgeek [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels |
If the MW is removed then is it the same problem? The CC 4+ was based on the Twin Reaper Autocannons. It can pump out a lot of fire with them and it seem appropriate. Maybe 5+ is more fitting though? |
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| Author: | Markconz [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels |
Crucial to this is whether or not the MW barrages rule change proposal is used or not (MW barrages use AP column against all targets). I would assume they are being used, and that PG is reasonably happy with using the core rules changes in Neal's change documents? Personally I have my reservations about the MW barrage rule change but have learned to live with it. 
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| Author: | Steve54 [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels |
The list I've settled on after playing BL 1-2 a weel for 18 months is- All Nurgle Retinue +pact, Obliterator, Prince Retinue +pact, Obliterator Retinue +pact, rhinos Forlorn hope +rhinos 7 Raptors +pact 4 Chosen +obliterator, pact Feral Feral Feral 9 lesser daemons My basic tactics are to garrison as much as possible using the scouts to disrupt the enemy movement. The ferals harrass any approaching units giving the retinues and raptors time to move forward. Then they launch daemon-assisted assaults supported by the ferals Ferals - under the present rules I feel that they are powerful (like most 3dc WEs in epic) but not overly so. Their best results have come when people have been distracted - dealing with the chosen, going at the garrisonned BTS etc and have allowed them to be used exactly as I want them to be - being in position to sustain in turn 2. But surely a 300pt unit should be powerful if you get to use them in an optimised situation? Decimators - I never use them, as whenever I have they never do anything. Really it is difficult to put them in the list in units of more than 1 and maintain sufficient activations. This added to their short range meaning that you have to put them in danger makes them extremely vulnerable. Whenever I have used them they have either been destroyed on my baseline or have managed one shot after doubling and have then been assaulted. Regarding their fearlessness removing that would just make them even more vulnerable - are IG SHTs not fearless? If a change were to be made a corrupted baneblade would be my preference but I would be hesitant to slavishly follow 40k as if we do that each list will constantly be changing - and especially not to a ridiculous model (plaguereaper) on a game supplement (apoc) which will probably be forgotten when the next 40k offshoot arrives. I have yet to encounter anybody who is confused by what the decimator is. Initially with the list I used death wheels as I liked the 75cm range but I've moved away from them due to the fatal critical and that I have found them quite ineffective except in pairs. Under the present rules I don't feel there is anything wrong with the chaos WEs though the virtually universally unpopular MW barrage changes alter this. I don't see how the WE dominated armies that have been mentioned as overpowered are viable. I would love to play against a list maxed out on WEs as the list is only going to have about 6 activations and lack flak |
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| Author: | zombocom [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels |
Ferals cost 25 points more than a warhound does these days. They're much, much better. Lose macro on the barrage, maybe replace with disrupt. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels |
I was going to go into detail on this, but I think Zombocom has said it very eloquently; Feral Titans are too cheap for their abilities. It wouldn't hurt to lose Macro-Weapon from the Decimator too, to be replaced with Disrupt. are IG SHTs not fearless? Not by default; You have ~6 Commissars in an IG army, and you can only have 1 fearless unit (Commissar upgrade) per formation. the virtually universally unpopular MW barrage changes In my experience this is a popular rules change... hasn't it passed several votes now? 3) The Feral really does seem fine to me. Oh all right, here's some detail: http://warseer.com/forums/showpost.php? ... ostcount=7 |
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| Author: | Kleomenes [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels |
I cant remember specific lists I have used but a typical one using the smaller WE would be: Retinue in Rhinos Retinue in Rhinos Raptors Decimator Decimator Land Raiders Hell Talons Feral Chosen Chosen Folorn Hope Folorn Hope I have played both using 'out of the book' rules, and using the BP table and MW changes. Using the out of the book rules, the decimators performed very poorly, they have been fragile, slow, short ranged and having done so much damage when they actually fired. AP 4+/AT6+ is fairly pants against tanks, it makes the Decimator a pure infantry killer - even firing against clustered IG mechanised infantry companies I havent had good results. I dont see them as worth taking in this set up Using the changed rules, the Decimator is a fearsome prospect if its left alone to do its thing. A single one quite easily kills 4-5 units out of a mech infantry company if its not doubling. I also played a game against BL when I was teaching a fellow how to play, and a single decimator did fairly horrendous damage on an IG infantry company which were holding some scrub on a hill. I would regard both those targets as 'optimal' however. It was also attacking directly in support of a foot based retinue, which is when I think these fellows work best. It should be noted that the time I had best results from them, I used the list above, one was killed by shadowswords on the baseline, another doubled forward, shot some IG mech infantry, was assaulted by roughriders but survived, then got some good shooting at the mech infantry the next turn before being broken and hiding behind a hill for the rest of the game. I regarded this as good results Thus I need to echo Steve54 about the vulnerability of the Decimator. 3 Blastmarkers and they are broken, 3 dc and they are dead. I have regularly faced shadowsword companies which may account for the vulnerability I have noticed but the pattern Steve54 highlights I recognise: Destruction on the Baseline by long range fire, or doubling forward, not so impressive firing, then being mobbed by an assault or more short range fire. So much so I've taken to fielding a ravager on a regular basis instead. I could see decimators being more of a problem if they could be used en masse, as not ALL of them could be picked off. To my mind however, I am not seeing that they would be overpowered if they came out of the titans 1/3 allowance as then you could have a maximum of 4 in 3000 points anyway. (You can get 6 shadowswords for 100 points more!) I think the CC should be dropped to further make them vulnerable to counter attack (4+ is too much, chaos spikey could give it 5+ max IMO). If it lost MW I'm not sure it would be worth taking. If they are meant to be proto-shadowswords, MW is appropriate. It might be better if they lost IC, lost some CC, and were moved to the WE allowance. This would be enough to limit Decimator spam and still keep them worth taking. Note: All games have been against IG, ranging between Tank heavy to more balanced. I havent used them against infantry heavy (usually 2 mech infantry comp max) To summarise: a) Used in limited numbers they haven't proved overpowering in my games b) Even with their high firepower they are vulnerable to long ranged fire and localised counter attack c) They would feel overpriced if they lost MW d) If they were allowed in large numbers their high firepower would cause more of a problem Ferals List as above. Ferals have mostly, in my experience, been cut to pieces by shadowswords the turn after all the decimators are dead! I've had them fire on mech infantry and got similar kill results to the decimator. Of course, the advantage is it has shields and is much faster, and this is where it comes into its own, I would say this makes a huge difference. It has been much easier to use terrain to hide from shadowswords when needed, much easier to get into crossfire positions. I have used ferals mainly to support mechanised assaults, and the time it worked it was very good - place the enemy into a crossfire position, then assault with something else and support with the ferals 5 firefight attacks. However I havent used them lots, partially because some of the games we have been playing with the out of the book rules where, again, I dont think they would be worth their points as much. With the rise to warhounds, I would think ferals need a 25 point rise. Alternatively, and personally what I would prefer, they should lose MW and stay at 300, or even go down. Their firepower would be comparable to a warhound if they lost MW, and they would be differentiated in target priority from a decimator - more anti infantry and assault support. Deathwheels Havent had a chance to use them yet! Next game
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels |
Note: All games have been against IG, ranging between Tank heavy to more balanced. I havent used them against infantry heavy (usually 2 mech infantry comp max) Decimators / Ferals optimal targets are 'heavy infantry' such as Storm Troopers, Nobz, or Marines... against a horde army with no heavy infantry and lots of tanks they won't be so incredible (Although they still ignore cover to blat away light infantry hiding in buildings, their Macro-Weapon ability will largely be wasted). So, in my opinion, you haven't seen them at their best yet. |
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| Author: | Kleomenes [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels |
I was thinking it was optimal as A: they were ignoring the cover modifiers of the infantry hiding behind the chimera, B: The chimera were losing their 5+ save, and C: everybody was very bunched up due to there being 2 infantry in base contact with every tank. I admit, marines in the same configuration would be optimal, but a mech infantry company is still a pretty good target - especially given the reapers are part of the firepower also |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels |
Aye, not a bad target, very true.
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels |
I think either Decimators or Ferals would be fine with either a slight point tweak (+25) or a reduction from MW+IC to one or the other, or in some sort of combination with Disrupt. Different combinations of special abilities for the two would serve to distinguish their battlefield roles further. Complaints about Deathwheels have been notably fewer. Feedback would lead me to think that aside from their being in the basic list instead of the WE allocation they are fine, but I don't have any direct experience. |
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| Author: | pixelgeek [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels |
Adding Disrupt to the weapons would replace one problem with another. Ignore Cover and Disrupt is easily as ugly. Instead of killing units you are placing enough BMs to break the formation in one shot I think Neal's suggestion of placing them in the titan/aircraft cap but leaving them in the 1-3 unit formation is something to test. I would also suggest that losing MW from the Decimator Cannon and Ignore Cover from the Feral's Hell Mouth is something to look at. |
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| Author: | pixelgeek [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels |
Further to this... When I play my BL army my opponents almost always have good anti-WE formations and they almost always move to take out the Decimators first. So much so that I don't even bother taking them against Guard since Shadowswords will cut them to pieces before I can get them in a good position. This is why I find it useful to hear how other people are using them and how their opponents are reacting to them. |
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