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Defilers
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=11236		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Defilers
Defilers have changed in 40K recently. Now, I'm not keen to port every minor change from 40K into Epic, but I think we should really have a look at the Defiler.

Firstly, why have their rules changed in 40K? Well, people (including me) were taking Defilers and using them as long-ranged indirect-fire artillery. Which they did very well, but it was rather a shame to have such giant daemon-engines skulking around the back of the battlefield. This was rather exacerbated by the fact that they just weren't that good at combat or able to get into combat either, so they got a significant combat boost and a speed upgrade.

Now, in Epic the same issues seem to apply. Defilers are rarely taken as I can see because a) they slow down a formation and b) their best use (as a long-ranged artillery piece) is poorly suited as an upgrade for a formation. They see more use in lists that allow them as independent formations, but again, they're artillery not scuttling death machines. Lastly, the models I've seen range from the imposing to the truly monstrous, and they die rather easily for such cool looking beasties!

So, suggestions.

1) Increase speed to 25cm. Since we have the precident from 40K, I think we could justify a move of 25cm. That would certainly go a long way to making them more attractive!
2) Remove Indirect Fire. They shouldn't be artillery. It would also make the datafax a little more tidy
3) Reduce save to 5+ but give them Reinforced Armour. That would make them somewhat more survivable without being unreasonable (after all, Defilers ARE tougher than Dreadnoughts in 40K) - they'd be just about as tough vs. normal weapons but would be harder to kill with MWs.
4) Reduce FF to 4+ Remove the extra attack from Heavy Flamer (although it will retain the Ignore cover), but increase it to AP3+
5) Increase CC to 3+. With those big combat arms and crushing legs I think they ought to be better in combat than a Dreadnought.

Thoughts? The net effects will be:
- Much faster, although would still slow a Rhino formation slightly.
- Slightly better in combat
- Much worse in a firefight (now MUCH better in combat vs firefight)
- Approximately same toughness as before vs normal weapons but resilient vs MW
- Simpler datafax
- No indirect artillery ability
Author:  rpr [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Defilers
The suggestions sound reasonable, but then their cost needs to be fixed...
Let's compare to Land Raiders, with same move
..against AT targets, they are a bit better (better range)
..against AP targets, they are clearly better (better range or 2 attacks)
..in firefight, they are almost 3 times as good
..in close combat, they are like 5 times as good
..they are walkers (but have no transport)
..their armor is a somehow worse (5+ RA + inv vs. 4+ RA)

As LR is 85, or 75 for non-fearless, 100 points might be okay. Quite much points in one RA 5+ DC 1 unit, however...

(yeah I think they are a bit underpriced when 75 a piece already, but the lack of speed makes that much)
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Defilers
I agree with everything Lord Inq. proposes.
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Defilers
Well, some more ideas to kick around, no real thought put into these:

Rpr, are you factoring in the fact that Land Raiders are somewhat underpowered as they are, and are generally considered to deserve a FF value of 4+? The comparison may be skewed by the fact that LRs are somewhat weak.

Reduce their CC or FF values (or both). Not sure they really deserve the CC3+ value they've got, since they have two attacks, and their BS has been reduced in 40K. Perhaps only 5+ FF as well? Two 5+ attacks is still pretty good.

Their move could be only 20cm, although I don't think that would be enough of a boost to make people take them.

They could be armed with the iconic twin reaper autocannon rather than the twin-las. Not sure exactly why they were given the lascannon in the first place (there must be a reason for such a "nonstandard" weapon fit).

The extra attack for the Heavy Flamer could be removed, further simplifying the datafax. As it is, it goes against the existing statline for Heavy Flamers (hence the name "Defiler Heavy Flamer" to differentiate it).
Author:  rpr [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Defilers

(Lord Inquisitor @ Dec. 16 2007,23:00)
QUOTE
Rpr, are you factoring in the fact that Land Raiders are somewhat underpowered as they are, and are generally considered to deserve a FF value of 4+? The comparison may be skewed by the fact that LRs are somewhat weak.

I was counting the FF 4+ land raider - against two FF 3+ attacks :]


Their move could be only 20cm, although I don't think that would be enough of a boost to make people take them.

No, 25cm move is fine. Otherwise they would not be that interesting.


They could be armed with the iconic twin reaper autocannon rather than the twin-las. Not sure exactly why they were given the lascannon in the first place (there must be a reason for such a "nonstandard" weapon fit).

Arrrr, no more 'better against infantry' units, it is already so hard to fight against vehicles =]

But it could be reasonable to remove flamer +EA or FF.. now 2x FF3+ is QUITE good...  could the flamer be just 15cm AP4+ IC and no ?EA in FF... then FF value could stay at 3+ ?
Author:  Ilushia [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Defilers
I'd guess they should have ignore cover in FF, but not an extra attack.

Though FF 3+ seems really high compared to the Leman Russ, russ has battle cannon, 2 heavy bolters and a lascannon. Defilers have battlecannon, lascannons and heavy flamer. Seems like the two should be pretty close together in terms  of FF value, so FF 4+ w/ IC (no extra attacks) would seem to fit the Defiler pretty good in my book. And help mitigate its price from going up too much.
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Defilers
Okay, I'll edit my first post with some more changes then. Heh. I actually thought they were CC3+ and FF4+ as it was... Wonder how long I've been getting that wrong...
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:52 am ]
Post subject:  Defilers
Indirect Fire was always a mistake.

The Heavy Flamer would (if you go with the siegemaster changes) give the small arms attack Ignore Cover (though no extra attack, same style as the multi melta FF).

Speed wise 25 seems a bit fast - rough riders are only 20cm (and so are sentinels I think).

How about 20cm infiltrate? Gives them the speed boost and the CC boost.

Reapers would definitively be better than Lascannon.

If more long range needed replace flamer with a havoc launcher?
Author:  BlackLegion [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Defilers
I would favor the following stats:

Type Speed Armour CC FF
AV 20cm 4+ 4+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Battelecannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+ -
Reaper Autocannon 30cm AP4+/AT6+ -
Twin Heavy Flamer 15cm AP3+ Ignore Cover
AND (15cm) Small Arms Ignore Cover
Power Claws (base contact) Assault weapon Macro-weapon, Extra Attacks (+2)

Notes: Infiltrate, Invulnerable Save, Walker. The Heavy Flamer can shoot and be used to confer the Ignore Cover ability to the unit's firefight value.

The Defiler has the same armour value as a Predator in Wh40k but it's a Daemon Engine thus Invulnerable Save. Its WS doesn't justify a better CC value than a Dreadnought but it has two power claws.
Author:  Ilushia [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Defilers
20cm Infiltrate is better for melee then 25cm, IMHO. Gives  you a 40cm charge range, rather then just 25cm. The only problem I see is that if they're tied to a formation then they're still limited by coherency. 20cm+Infiltrate works for the Rough Riders because they're the entire unit, if you want it to work here I suspect we'll have to introduce an all-defiler formation.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Defilers
From a fluff standpoint of view i think Daemon Engines can't be left alone. They need someone to guid them or they will go run amok at whatever they perceive as worthwhile prey.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Defilers
Well, fine for the L&D, troublesome for the CSM.

Two solutions.

1) let them 'use' drop pods. They don't actually use drop pods rather they can be encased in a mechanical cucoon and insert some sort of techno magic babble.

2) give them scout.

Of the two the second is the best - think of the possibilities! They can then garrison, widen the opportunities for other formations to be used and the 10cm scout zoc could represent some kind of demonic aura/worry about a big metal crab and so you don't want to hang around there!
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Defilers

(BlackLegion @ Dec. 17 2007,07:04)
QUOTE
2 x Power Claw (base contact) Assault weapon Macro-weapon, Extra Attacks (+1)

Do you mean that the Defiler gets 2 extra attacks or as there are two power claws it gets an extra attack?

Plus rather than giving them too great an increase in speed, why don't people just test them at 15cm with infiltrate that would be a suitable increase in my eyes.
Author:  Soren [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Defilers
Defiler is not faster than a Leman Russ, sure not and second, it?s no Infiltrator. Please stay realistic in design. This thing will be a Monster with a hack of extra MW-attacks, FF, good shooting and a speed better than MBT????? And sure it does NOT fit into a Drop pod :)

Just curious what it gets too. maybe teleport and scout or leader. We would then have all possibilites taken.  :D

Dreadnoughts also have heavy flamers and they don?t even get a FF boost from this. So forget this ignore cover for defiler as fast a possible, as this thing is already over the top and unrealistic good.
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