Thats fair enough when you are concerned - you've clearly made your point and now comment on various ideas, no problem with that. You haven't reiterated the same point again and again or dismissed any alternatives in a patronising fashion with no willingness to even contemplate any reorganisation ideas

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NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Well after distracting myself with Feral Orks and Tyranids for the past few weeks I'm back to continuing my look at the LatD.

I'm thinking of looking at the other side of the list for a few weeks and seeing if dropping all things Daemon makes a difference. With this in mind here is the list that I propose to use this Friday.

1 Coven - CM Aspiring Champion (Arch Heretic), PDF Cultists / Mutants, Chimeras (6) & Hydra - 400
2 Coven - CM Aspiring Champion, PDF Cultists / Mutants & Chimeras (6) - 350
3 Coven - CM Aspiring Champion, PDF Cultists / Mutants, Additional PDF Cultists (3) & Hydra - 295
4 Coven - CM Aspiring Champion, PDF Cultists & Hydra - 250
5 Coven - CM Aspiring Champion, PDF Cultists / Mutants, Chimeras (6), Griffon (3) & Hydra - 505
6 Infestation - 175
7 Support - Traitor: Leman Russ - 400
8 Support - Traitor: Basilisk - 325
9 Support - Traitor: Rough Riders - 150
10 Support - Traitor: Thunderbolts - 150

106 Units (plus Infestation) in 3000pts of madness.

The problem with playing pure traitor IG is that you end up just playing slightly less good guard...

A lack of commissars, small armour formations, poor FF on cultists, and the whole 1:1 coven to support really clamp down on choices.

On the other hand 4 basilisk formations are immense, 4+ CC Mutants are good etc.

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This is my concern also with splitting the LatD.

Happy to watch from the sidelines for now however to see how it goes.

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well, a pure traitor IG list would have room for corrupted bane blade variants, cultist tanks, light armour variants, less emphasis on covens ect.

there's a quite good Chaos Seige masters list done by Ulrik recently.

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My shifting projects

Well I can have a mechanized company for 50pts less than the IG can have. The artillery battery is better and I can teleport in Zombies. This list is not, I hope, IG light.

Sure you can, but that mech company is significantly worse - worse FF stats (5+ compared to 6+), no commissar, and much worse heavy weapons.

As it stands the up sides dont balance out the down sides for me, add in daemons and it is a different matter tho.

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But better CC stats (5+ compared to 6+) & more shots 12 v 7 from the cultists or even better CC & a save if you go with mutants. & again 50pts I can spend elsewhere.

Plus I'd say that the heavy weapons are not much worse, yes range is down by a third, AP is one worse, but as a long time Ork player I recognise them for what they are and treate them as a possible lucky hit but more likely only placing a blast marker.

So I got my game in against Marines on Friday and chalked up another win for the LatD. The Basilisks didn't get to do anything as they fell to a terminator alpha strike, but the rest of the army worked very well. I will definately be getting some more games in with this list as the cultists were able to get cover from the Chimeras, I didn't have to worry about the Chimeras being shot up with AP shots and the smaller Leman Russ formation added a nice amount of extra long range shootiness. Added in the advantage of the zombie infestation and CC4+ Mutants, I would say that this list rivals a standard IG list with it's commissars.

Played a 4k game vs. a buddies Thousand Sons a while back and used this list:

STIGMATUS COVEN [305]
5 Cultists, Demagogue, (Chaos Undivided), Daemonic Pact, Icon Bearer, 4 Mutants, 2 Big Mutants
STIGMATUS COVEN [305]
5 Cultists, Demagogue, (Chaos Undivided), Icon Bearer, Daemonic Pact, 4 Mutants, 2 Big Mutants
STIGMATUS COVEN [305]
5 Cultists, Demagogue, (Chaos Undivided), Icon Bearer, Daemonic Pact, 4 Mutants, 2 Big Mutants
STIGMATUS COVEN [355]
5 Cultists, (Chaos Undivided), 3 Traitor Griffon, 6 Mutants, Daemon Prince (Arch Heretic)
STIGMATUS COVEN [350]
5 Cultists, (Chaos Undivided), 2 Traitor Hellhound, 6 Mutants, Daemon Prince
STIGMATUS COVEN [350]
5 Cultists, (Chaos Undivided), 2 Traitor Hellhound, 6 Mutants, Daemon Prince
ARTILLERY BATTERY [325]
4 Basilisks
ARTILLERY BATTERY [325]
4 Basilisks
ARMOURED COMPANY [400]
6 Leman Russ
ARMOURED COMPANY [400]
6 Leman Russ
ROUGH RIDER PLATOON [150]
6 Rough Riders
SENTINEL SQUADRON [100]
4 Sentinels
DAEMON POOL [340]
Greater Daemon, 12 Lesser Daemon

This tend to characterise the lists I use most often - a traitor guard with daemon support. Having just 1 or 2 armoured vehicles in the covens really, really, really sucks but that is to be expected! I do find I struggle without daemons, the mutants are great but it is difficult to get them into CC and the cultists are shockingly bad at FF.

Going into another 4k game this weds and thought I would try something different, just hope my opponent doesn't read this before the game... - (STOP READING RIGHT NOW BEN!):

Incompertus, 2995 POINTS
Lost And The Damned (NetEA v3.1)
==================================================

STIGMATUS COVEN [375]
Demagogue, 6 Cultists, Chaos Altar, Daemonic Pact, 5 Mutants, (Tzeentch)
STIGMATUS COVEN [375]
Demagogue, 6 Cultists, Chaos Altar, Daemonic Pact, 5 Mutants, (Slaanesh)
STIGMATUS COVEN [425]
6 Cultists, 6 Chimera, Daemonic Pact, Demagogue, Icon Bearer, 5 Mutants, (Slaanesh)
STIGMATUS COVEN [250]
6 Cultists, Daemon Prince, 5 Mutants, (Tzeentch)
STIGMATUS COVEN [250]
6 Cultists, Daemon Prince, 5 Mutants, (Tzeentch)
ARMOURED COMPANY [400]
6 Leman Russ
SLAANESH DAEMON KNIGHTS [275]
4 Daemon Knights
SLAANESH SCOUT TITANS [225]
Subjugator
HELLFIRE CANNONS [200]
4 Hellfire Cannons
DAEMON POOL [220]
11 Lesser Daemon

Probably playing against 1000 Sons, which is never easy. No hydras will make it extra hard I think. Trying out a mechanized coven for a faster formation. Will let you guys know how it goes.

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My EPIC and BFG Blog: https://epicaddiction.wordpress.com/

Yeah I am coming into this late, but I'll add my bit since I am the one that wrote the original LATD list. When I started writing the LatD list I wanted to create a list that was roughly based on what was in the Eye of Terror codex. As it was the last "official" LatD list GW had written. Jervis agreed that it was a good beginning point. Actually in the discussion with Jervis the old Daemon Engines were only included because players already had them. We talked of redoing the DE line and getting rid of the old stuff (ah the days when Special Games was at its prime). Sorry kind of going off topic.

In the creation process I knew that a number of the older models were not available to newer players. Thus the inclusion of both traitor elements and daemon engines and such. I didn't want someone to skip creating their own LATD army because they didn't have daemon engines. Plus it also went along with the Eye Of Terror codex.

The Stigmatus Cult LATD list is a chaos group that has been growing for years on an Imperial world. Finally they rise up. So they may have built various war engines and performed a ritual to have them possessed by daemons. Also they are going to use what ever is available. So if the cult has access or can "acquire" leman russ tanks they are going to use them. Because of this the list ends up being larger than average.

Changing a list should be done because it is not balanced. If one list is working for multiple people and is approved for play then why break it apart or radically change the list? I don't think you should alter a list that players seem to feel is a reasonably balanced list just because it has too many unit options or pages in the list.

I know the "must have" hydra has been mentioned a number of times. If that is an issue then look at why people are taking the hydra. Is the problem because it is an imperial vehicle and not a chaos one? The Marines were luckily enough to get the Hunter figure made because they lacked AA support. I have put the hydras in the list to help protect the masses of infantry from being susceptible to air strikes. Besides the Hydra, the Altar is the only ground unit that has AA. If 0-2 is too much then cut it to 0-1 or raise the cost slightly.

And here is my LatD list I made last week to play soon. My group likes to go for 4kpts instead of 3kpts

2 Cultists & 1 Arch Heretic - 200pts (660pts)
3 Mutants
6 Big Mutants 120pts
1 Chaos Spawn 25pts
3 Chaos Hounds 30pts
11 Land Transports 110pts
1 Chaos Altar 150pts
1 Daemonic Pact 25pts

4 Cultists & 1 Daemon Prince +50pts +200pts (425pts)
7 Mutants
3 Chaos Hounds 30pts
1 Icon Bearer upgrade 50pts
1 Daemonic Pact 25pts
7 Land Transports 70pts

1 Plague Zombie Infestation (175pts)

5 Cultists & 1 Chaos Aspiring Champ - 200pts (480pts)
2 Mutants
4 Big Mutants 80pts
4 Fire Support 100pts
2 Hydra Flak 100pts

11 Traitors & 1 Traitor Commander - 200pts (660pts)
3 Leman Russ 210pts
6 Chimera 150pts
2 Hydra Flak 100pts

Daemon Pool (315pts)
1 Slaanesh GD 75pts
12 LD 240pts

2 Slaanesh Questor Titans 550pts

4 Daemon Knights 275pts

4 Defilers 250pts

4 Hellfire Cannons 200pts

3990 points total

FYI - The traitors are just cultists and the traitor commander is a demagogue. I just envision them being traitor IG elements and the formation is modeled that way. Thus the labeling.

Could you pm me about this? Always after new ideas, even if they're old ideas.

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My shifting projects

Thanks for the inside and list wraeththu. Bit short on activations for my type of 4k games, but follows some of the ideas that I've been looking at. Hoping to post something for the wider community soon.

Wraeththu! Good to see you around a bit.