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Thousand Sons List

 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:40 pm 
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I've had almost no feedback on the titans.  Generally speaking the weaponry is a bit higher in firepower but a bit shorter ranged and that should hopefully be balanced.

They could stand to have a comparison with E&C's latest AMTL costs and stats.




A quick look at the Titans with roughly comparable weapon loadouts yields:


- 'Oracle' Titan:
Warhound with Inferno Gun & Vulcan Megabolter - 275pts (same cost)


- 'Diviner' Titan
Reaver with Plasma Cannon, Gatling Blaster & Inferno Gun - 625pts (AMTL Titan is 25pts cheaper)


- 'Augur' Titan
Warlord with Plasma Cannon, 2x Gatling Blaster & Inferno Gun - 800pts (AMTL Titan is 50pts cheaper)


I used the Plasma Cannon as the 'Beam of Power' as it has the same range and number of shots, whilst one is slow firing the other has a worse to-hit stat.
The AMTL Titans have 15cm extra range on their Gatling Blasters over the 'Tzeentch Cannons', but they are the closest stat match.
Inferno Guns have the same stats as a 'Flames of Tzeentch' attack.


For the Warhound's weapons, the 'Cannons of Tzeentch' are slightly better than a Vulcan Megabolter if you follow the adage that a point of AT is generally worth a bit more than a point of AP, but not significantly so.


The extra cost for the Tzeentch Titans seems to be accounted for in their +1 Firefight stat (Firefight being worth more than Close Combat in general anyway). I suggest the +1 FF and the extra First Strike attack in Firefight easily compensate for any drawbacks they suffer at range, thereby easily justifying the extra cost for the Battle Titans.

Overall, compared to the Standard Configuration Titans:


Oracle - Marginally better shooting than an identically-priced Warhound, identical in a Firefight.
Diviner - Worse shooting than a similarly-equipped Reaver Titan, better in a Firefight.
Augur - Worse shooting than a similarly-equipped Warlord Titan, much better in a Firefight, worse in CC.






So a quick glance tells me these Titans are probably priced about right, certainly they're not too cheap.





==========


On a related note, the proliferation of alternative names for Titans is getting a little bit extreme now...

...would it be better to label the Titans in a manner such as:   'Warlord Titan- Augur Configuration', 'Reaver Titan - Diviner Configuration', etc?




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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:31 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 09 Jun. 2009, 12:06 )

Any chance for the Warp Palace to get Void Shields? It seems to be a bit on the weak side with its slow speed.

The style is intended for it to be "eggshell wielding a sledgehammer," which is similar to the Silver Towers.  The Tzeentch daemon engines are supposed to pack wicked amounts of arcane firepower but are fairly easy to kill if you concentrate on them.  That's a contrast to all the hard, low firepower units in the army.  If you want tough fire support plodding along with the Rubric troops, shrugging off enemy fire as they close, you can do that with Land Raiders and Titans.  If you make Palaces tough, you just have a unit that plays like a funny looking titan instead of something different.

I have considered upping it to 20cm move like the Towers, though.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:06 pm 
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@neal: You could maybe give it a variable speed based on how many weapons it chooses to fire. A throwback to the Tzeentch ships from Man o War.


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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:59 pm 
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Quote: (Lord of Worms @ 09 Jul. 2009, 21:06 )

@neal: You could maybe give it a variable speed based on how many weapons it chooses to fire. A throwback to the Tzeentch ships from Man o War.

Wow.  I'd rather not get into that level of detail.  I'm not sure what it would add.

There is a rough correlation between moving and the effectiveness of fire, just in the to-hit mods for Sustain/Advance/Double.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:17 am 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 19 May 2008, 19:21 )

Reflecting the changes above: Thousand Sons 3.0

Hi there. I am sorry, but the page that you looking for doesnt seem to be available.
If you came here looking for the Tactical Command and EpiComms forums, these can now be found here:
www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/index.cgi
If you are looking for something else, please head over to the main page:
www.tacticalwargames.net
Thanks,
CyberShadow/Iain


:sigh:

Edit: I finally found 3.1 the hard way.




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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:50 am 
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I've been playing with this list for a few games and I've noticed a few things. I should point out that my gaming group and I are newcomers to this game, so the issues I have with the titans can be explained as something I'm just "not getting". I and a friend recently played a series of 3500 point games and we noticed a few things about the list; he was playing space marines with a pair of standard warhounds,and I played TS with a reaver and a few Silver Towers. The reaver did not impress and sort of became a joke. We actually took to calling the Beam of Power the "Beam of Impotence" instead :sigh:. The only time he ever did anything was when I walked him right up to a clump of my my opponent's formations, fired everything and then engaged with disc riders or something so he could add his Firefight shots. After four games with this walking temple of mediocrity I decided to analyse it mathematically and I came up with essentially the same results as Chaos and Evil did earlier in the thread.

I took it bit further noting that the Tzeentch cannons are the same as Gatling Blasters with a poorer range, and that the Beam of Impotence is actually significantly worse than the Plasma Cannon. Cripplingly so. In a single turns shooting, the Plasma Cannon will cause 2.5 macro hits (probability-wise), whereas the Beam will cause .99 hits. Even if the reaver fires the Beam for two consecutive turns, it will cause less damage then the Plasma Cannon firing once. That's not right :sigh:  

I also noted the Warp Flame as well as the extra 1-in-6 chance of the better firefight value adding up to one extra save the enemy has to take due to the 6 dice the reaver has in engagements, if i'm not mistaken.

As I said before, I could simply be missing something but I feel that the battle titans in this list are duds. They feel like a handicap but with the unwealdy nature of the infantry formations, coupled with the expense of all formations in this list large or small make the handicap unnecessary, IMO.

The TS already have precious little in ranged support, and looking at the Black Legion list, I'm thinking that their titans would be much more useful. The battle titans in most other lists bring usually bring something new to the army but aside from their resilience the Suns of Damnation seem to be "more of the same".

That said I think the beam of power needs to be tweaked. Either a greater range or maybe bumping it up to MW4+, maybe?

I noticed on another thread that there is a full Suns of Damnation Legion list in the works, and I would like to suggest:

1.) Some kind of ranged firepower other than a Warmonger
2.) Something that messes with the other army, like disrupt or something that lowers the opponents SR or something. This could be worked on in the TS list too; they are always portrayed as using magic and Tzeentchiness to mess with the opposing army but there is nothing in the list aside from pyrotechics. Just a thought.

P.S. Reviewing this post it may come across that I'm complaining too much; I'm not trying to, it's just stuff I noticed. My computer also crashed and I had to write this post twice. This is the abridged version.


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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:41 pm 
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Great.  Thanks.

The only time he ever did anything was when I walked him right up to a clump of my my opponent's formations, fired everything and then engaged with disc riders or something so he could add his Firefight shots... The battle titans in most other lists bring usually bring something new to the army but aside from their resilience the Suns of Damnation seem to be "more of the same".

That's actually the intended primary use of the titans in the list.  They are tough adjuncts to the overall FF assault ability in the army, providing a durable source of fire for prepping assault targets.  Move in close, fire/place BMs, support the assault from the TSons and Disc Riders.

Ranged fire support is intended to come primarily from the Towers and Palaces.  They pack pretty wicked firepower in fragile vehicles.  The idea being that the army can mix those units in with the TSons, Land Raiders and Titans to get a range of shooty support v tough and "stuck in".

Perhaps you are correct that this arrangement is a case of "more of the same" for the titans.  The list has definitely struggled with too many Fearless/tough/FF units making it bland to play with and irritating to play against.  Do you have any suggestions on how to give the titans a more unique niche?  Some other role they might take on, either instead of or in addition to the tough assault support?

That said I think the beam of power needs to be tweaked. Either a greater range or maybe bumping it up to MW4+, maybe?
We're stuck with the Beam of Power stats.  It's in the Silver Towers in a published list (L&D).

I noticed on another thread that there is a full Suns of Damnation Legion list in the works, and I would like to suggest:

1.) Some kind of ranged firepower other than a Warmonger
2.) Something that messes with the other army, like disrupt or something that lowers the opponents SR or something. This could be worked on in the TS list too; they are always portrayed as using magic and Tzeentchiness to mess with the opposing army but there is nothing in the list aside from pyrotechics. Just a thought.

I have a number of ideas for a Suns list.  One of them is to model various "mental" effects for diversion and confusion using abilities like Disrupt, Inspiring, etc..  Also indirect fire weapons guided by seers, jump packs for short term hover/flight, a few follower concepts for support units and some other stuff.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:36 pm 
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Neal, if you wanna chat about your ideas for the Suns of Damnation, I'm looking to start on the rough draft for them over the next couple of weeks (I plan to have the playtest lists for all four Chaos Titan Legions prepared before the end of the summer)

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:34 am 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 13 Jul. 2009, 14:41 )

Perhaps you are correct that this arrangement is a case of "more of the same" for the titans.  The list has definitely struggled with too many Fearless/tough/FF units making it bland to play with and irritating to play against.  Do you have any suggestions on how to give the titans a more unique niche?  Some other role they might take on, either instead of or in addition to the tough assault support?...

...We're stuck with the Beam of Power stats.  It's in the Silver Towers in a published list (L&D).

I'm hesitant on suggesting specifics, because like I said, I'm new to this game. I'm still not sure wether my dissatisfaction with these titans is my fault or theirs. However, I found that after only one game my opponent knew that until I move a certain distance towards his deployment zone, he could maneuver/shell me with impunity which lead to some irritation with all the overwatches.

If we are stuck with the Beam of Power as it is, then maybe the Battle Titans should have a different weapon entirely. I wasn't displeased with the performance of the towers, so maybe the weapon itself is fine and is just inappropriate for the titans. Maybe something that has long range BPs with disrupt instead? Maybe this can be examined better when the WIP Suns of Damnation list is better defined.

I would be more than happy to playtest any suggested ideas and will add more suggestions as my understanding of the game develops. I really want this list to work, so don't hesitate to PM me or whatever. :)

P.S. Would something that screws up the enemy's strategy rating or initiative rolls mess up the game. It seems pretty radical, so I don't really want to try it until I learn to play a little more...

P.P.S. I have a n00bish question regarding thrall wizards; how to model them? Since they are characters they should join an existing unit, right? But then when you "burn" them do you simply replace that unit with one that has no wizards on it? The only alternative is dummy stands of thrall wizards that are just used as more or less tokens and just get removed after they use their power.





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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:00 pm 
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Frogbear:  You stated in your posts on Chaos Squats that you had ideas about the Thousand Sons.  I'd appreciate it if you'd share.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:28 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ Jan. 12 2010, 23:00 )

Frogbear:  You stated in your posts on Chaos Squats that you had ideas about the Thousand Sons.  I'd appreciate it if you'd share.

Sure Neal

Let me wrap up some of the World Eater stuff and then I will get straight into it.

Any chance that you could fix the link to V3.0?

Cheers......




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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:41 pm 
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3.1 is in the wiki.  Has been for a while.  I'll fix the link as well.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:58 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ Jan. 13 2010, 04:41 )

3.1 is in the wiki.  Has been for a while.  I'll fix the link as well.

Noooo! Not the Wiki!    :;):

Where gamers fear to tread...

Thanks for that   :agree:

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:02 pm 
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Neal

Just a quick one, can you please give an example of a list you have taken with this version?

At 400 points for the base unit, I would be interested to see if the full 1/3 of the points were spent on Aerospace formations

Thanks

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:20 pm 
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It's been a while since I played with it.  It was your comment that led me to look at it again.

Last time I played it was something like...

Retinue w/ SC and Rhinos 450
Retinue w/ Ahriman's Chosen 475
Silver Towers (4)  360
Disc Riders  325
Warcoven   325
2 Warp Palaces  750
Doomwings  150
Doomwings  150


It's 50 points over on the 1/3 titans and air because I added wrong.

It was in urban terrain so the Palaces and Towers had great defense, using pop-up to fire.  Turn 2 was a teleport pound-fest with the Termies and the Chosen coming in for assaults and crossfire.  However, it still barely won on objectives with two formations broken and doing the "line of Fearless, 4+RA" to block out the enemy from contesting (one retinue and the termies, iirc).

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