Neal, I've just had another read through 5.1.

here are some questions:
1/ Are the character/leader names all necessary given the list is now based on 10,000 years since the HH? I would imagine a lot of attrition has happened and even if it hasn't, many of the preceptors would now be higher ranked - if the rank system is still used anyway. I've been finding the changes in the cult lists to character types (moving away from the standard BL standardised naming) slightly confusing. It makes me constantly wonder what that character does in game and I have to ask each time? The World Eaters list suffers from this unfortunately too. I understand the propensity to want a change - heck even the Space Wolves characters are renamed. The thing with them however is they sort of still reflect standard Codex types in their names.

2/Is the preceptor necessary, apart from fluff? Seems like the Adeptus Lord and Preceptor could make a merge. Or is it just a cheaper version to add to Neophytes?

3/Do the Terminators have to be called "Rubric Terminators" as opposed to "Thousand Sons Terminators?" The standard power-armoured marines are just "Thousand Sons Marines" and have the rubric rule also. EDIT - After reading the Battle of the Fang novel I see they should all just be called Rubricae Terminators or Marines.

4/I still think the Defiler in the list could make way for the Deceiver alone. All it needs is to merge the weaponry options into the Deceiver i.e Both share the heavy flamer and claws option and the Tzeentch cannon is the same stats as a battle cannon on the Defiler. Just add the ether cannon and warp flame in place of the reaper cannon and you're done

6/What is the Thousand Sons Adeptus' weapon? It's not listed.

Just some thoughts anyway.

Neal, where in the timescale are you setting the list? I'm almost finished reading Battle of the Fang and a few things seem to stand out with the Thousand Sons. The following are just some views/ideas I had but thought that they were pertinent to the discussion even if they don't make the list.

There seem to be two Thousand Sons factions. Those that follow Magnus and those who follow Ahriman. This isn't necessarily a design for the list just an interesting bit of info on how the two factions work. The info isn't exactly flowing freely regarding this split however.

Even after only a 1000 years since the Heresy their leaders are all generally now just Sorceror Lords controlling squads of Rubricae. Pavoni, Pyridae and Corvidae cults are all still in evidence but I'm not sure that the extra leader types in the list are involved at an even later date in the time line e.g. 9-10000 years post Heresy. Given the level of flesh change that seems to occur in the 31st Millenium I wonder just how many of the Magister Templi, Adeptus Exempla, Preceptor would still exist among the Legion in the 41st. Maybe convert them to Sorceror Lords instead and give the list more character through other means like...

Kine Shields - The Sons seem to make quite extensive use of Kine Shields (both personal and army-wide) during battle to protect themselves from enemy shooting. I was playing with (this isn't fleshed out) an idea for Kine Shields in the list:

Use a barrage template to give Rubricae formations that still contain a Sorceror Lord a "void shield" save on top of their RA save? You'd get to place it in response to incoming shooting over any units you could cover. It could be a single use a turn thing to help the Rubricae survive and give them a more impacable advance feel. It could also be used to help nullify a single barrage weapon template (3BP = 1 template; 4BP = 2 templates, so one would still hit) dropped on the formation (just how it seems to be used in the fluff).

In addition a Sorceror Lord always has a personal "Kine Shield" (an invulnerable save of 5+?) to keep the Sorceror alive to keep his Rubricae in the fight. Given how tough Sons troops are portrayed this wouldn't be too much of a leap that the Sorceror would have a better invulnerable save than a standard one. It would also keep the Sorcerors from being assassinated by sniper fire so easily not too much of leap to imagine it would be hard to do so.

First Strike
Grant FS to Rubricae formations that contain a Sorceror. It would represent the tactic of the Sorcerors to "freeze" the enemy in battle as they seem to do in the fluff.

Death of a Sorceror
If a Sorceror is killed the Rubricae should become inert on the table until another Sorceror can pick them up?? Similar to the Nid list? This is how they appear to work in the fluff from the books I've read.

Cheers

Hey Dobbsy:

I'm definitely open to cutting down the number of characters in the army, including possibly cutting the adeptus entirely. The general problem is that the variety was added to keep the army list from always looking the same, so changes have to keep that in mind.

As to unit/character specifics... Magister Templi is basically the TSons deamon prince and I think they should have a monstrously strong psyker option. And, of course, they need a Supreme Commander option. Preceptor could definitely be replaced with a standard Sorcer Lord. Adeptus could be cut. Having another teleport core formation allows a heavy deepstrike strategy and it gives a certain vulnerability to the SC, so it has some purpose in the list, but in the interest of trimming the list and fitting the fiction I could cut it.

Are you suggestion there should be no Neophytes at all, or just that there's no need for a separate Preceptor character?

Kine shields - I'd prefer not to introduce special rules. I think the 4+RA could be considered to take into account both the durability of the Rubricae and the effect of kine shields. However, an Invulnerable Save on all the Sorcerer Lords would work.

First Strike - I don't want to jack up the per-unit price again. I trimmed the formation size and added the Rubric movement restriction to get the unit/formation price down so the list has more flexibility. I'm very hesitant to go back the other direction.

Lost Sorcerers - The basic Fellowship formation is 3 squads of 9, each with a sorcerer, and a slightly higher level leader or two (or a triumvirate) to round it out to ~30 troopers. There is very likely to be someone to take control in the event of casualties. Blast Markers are good enough to reflect shifting/re-establishing control. Any permanent loss of control would be a kill, in the "combat disabled" sense.

What you are talking about on the Kine Shield/Lost Sorcerer tradeoff is making them more durable but giving them a special weakness. I think that can average out to the current durability. I'm pretty pleased with their slow and rock hard feel without new special rules.

Hey Neal.

The Warcoven terminators choice should have the Defilers upgrade instead of the currently undefined "Deceiver" , right?

Thanks in advance (o:


PS: Flamers are mentioned twice as a lesser demon choice - are they that great?

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Hello Neal,

Saw the dread is still in the list but how is it fielded? Is it a support upgrade or a seperate formation?

On another note, I'm currently scratchbuilding a silver tower model, using the old model as inspiration. Imagine the base flipped over and a disc like structure with removable/interchangable towers.

My Silver Tower is built around a 23mm washer, and I thought of using a 25 or 30mm base for the Spire and a 40mm base for the Palace. How does the base dimensions sound to you DC-wise?

Cheers,
Thomas

Deceiver upgrade - yes, it should be Defilers
Dreadnought - currently, it is not in the army list. I'm open to suggestions on where it should be included.

Towers - 25-30mm sounds about right as a base.
Spires - Mine are a little over 40mm base. The towers are a mix of some silver tower bits and various other towers, mostly from mega-gargants, and some other added details (warp fire pits and such). Overall appearance of mass is probably comparable to a SHT.
Warp Palace - About 50mm base, with a more substantial, fortress-style core should be about right. Or you could go for a 60mm base with something more like a sprawling complex.

Quick Q:

Given Rubric units cannot march, can a formation of Thousand sons in Rhinos march seeing as the rhinos are non-rubric?

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Not as the rule is written. The TSons units would still be taking part in the March action.

Do you think there is an argument that they should be able to?

I was playing against a friend who was using the 1000 sons list for the first time and he made the argument that as the rubrics were inside the rhinos, and that the rhinos were not rubric themselves they should be able to march. Note the rule currently specifies "rubric units", not "formations containing rubric units".

I thought it was strange, so came on here.

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Good thing the game board is not too wide to reach over and give 'im an honest slap on the cheek.

I don't know I'd go that far, but whether the Marines are riding or not, they are "taking part in a March Action". Seems pretty clear to me.

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Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Well he is probably reading this thread now, so hopefully the slap will be self-administered!

Thanks guys.

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?

Why would Rhino's be slowed because of Rubric Marines?

I daresay you have a Rhino full of the walking impaired, it does not slow the Rhino down does it? If so, why?

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Well there's certainly a case for allowing transported rubric units to march, but the letter of the rules is clear; it can't be done.

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Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Well the rule as written makes no sense.

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