What relevance is that? We could equally talk about how titans would not work as they would sink into the ground or how poor psykers have been in afghanistan

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lol  

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lol  

But it is of relevance in order to cement the arguments why Obliterators shouldn't have an AA-system.

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How does saying what real world weapons can do cement what a mutatated chaos marine with morphing energy weapons can do?

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In general you would just look at what "energy weapons" represent in Warhammer 40,000 (typically, they are vaguely analogous to AT guns, or low shot volume armour penetrating weapons at any rate).

Aren't there some aircraft armed with Lascannons that have "anti aircraft mounts" in Warhammer 40,000?

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The aircrafts with AA-Moutns are in the minority in Wh40k Apocalypse.

- The Imperial Thunderbolt has an AA-Mount for his two Twin Autocannons.
- The Ork Fighta-bommer has an AA-Mount in his four front Big Shootas.
- The Eldar Nightwing is an Interceptor which results that all his weapon (two Shurikencannons and two Bright Lances) are threated as if they had an AA-Mount.
- The Eldar Phoenix has an AA-Mount on his two Shuriken Cannons.
- The Tau Barracuda has an AA-Mount on his Ioncannon.
- The Dark Eldar Raven is an Interceptor which results that all his weapon (twin Dark Lance and Lb Splinter Cannon) are threated as if they had an AA-Mount.

No other aircrafts (not even the Ork Fighta or Imperial Lightning) have an AA-Mount on any of it's weapons.

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I don't mind one way or the other if the obliterator has some AA ability, what I mind is when that AA ability is somehow better than a hydra.

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Better- and how!

Infantry vs AV
Fearless vs not
4+ Reinforced Armour vs 5+
6+ Inv vs not
2+ Firefight vs 5+
Additional Macro Weapons in CC vs 6+
Teleport/Drop Pod vs ground

Oh yeah, and as you mentioned- it's AA is better...

For what? 25pts more? (or equal to a SM Hunter?), it reads like a fanboys wet dream unit rather than one that was properly tested and balanced.

Dropping the AA still leaves it with a ridiculous number of perks but slightly less ridiculous.

In all fairness - the relevance is towards realism. I know it's a game. I know it's sci-fi, but still it is not Transformers or pokemon.

Obliterators in 40k can morph into: lascannon, multi-melta, plasma cannon, twin-linked plasma gun, twin-linked melta gun, twin-linked flamer. I cannot find any other specified weapons in the fluff and no AA-type weapons whatsoever.

Lascannons can be AA, however they are never counted as such in Infantry units. If Oblits should have AA why not give AA to any other lascannon wielding infantry? Why not? they have an 'energy weapon' so you just point it at a flying airplane, go 'bzzzzz' and it should blow up. In case someone mentions 'Obliterators morphing targetting systems' - please give me an actual quote and by Perturabo, I will shut my yapper   Instead of making obliterators fluffy , they seem to be AA oriented which has no proof in the fluff. We're trying to make Obliterators omnipotent. They can't morph into a battlecannon, but somehow they can morph in to AA designated weapons. IMO this doesn't add up.

a quote in the rulebook (pg 48) concerning aerospace units:

I cannot find any proof of oblits being specialised in AA or have any AA abilities and the quotation above should remind us what we are dealing with here.  

Laylo

The background, whilst important, is highly subjective and can be interpreted to support any argument- just look at mine and others discussions on the nature of Tyranids.

For me, it is the gameplay that comes first. The Oblit with AA is so different (read more powerful) than any other AA it stands out as odd.
Every other AA ground unit is a vehicle with fragile armour and no other purpose.

Jeridian : You forgot SR4 instead of SR2.  

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Hydras *do* have 30cm move though...  

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Precisely. A unit that probably shouldn't be AA, performs a multum of other roles, and is still better at AA than AA-designated units.

Both the fluff and gameplay aspects are far-fetched at best, while the Stalker + removal of AA on oblits wouldn't be problematic. In addition, though the stalker doesn't feature as an official model, it's really easy to convert.

Except that it changes the nature of the list forcing a move to a more mechanised marine with daemons style of list.

In a straight hydra/oblit comparison what does the hydra restrict it formation form doing? by comparison the oblit forces its formation to walk.

Anyway this and the arguments in this thread are rehashing discussions that have gone on for several years - no new factors have been brought up. That the argument has dragged on for years means that all sides have heavily entrenched views.

At this stage playtesting is what is needed - we are dragging behind most of the other NetEA list, as the list needs to be ready for the NetEA book within a couple of months.
So items for testing
- Does the stalker work at its stats/cost? -I'm not sure I've ever seen a report of it being used
- Have the changes to the oblit downgraded it sufficiently?
- Is having both INF+AV AA units too good?

Results in the playtest thread please

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With respect Steve, while you have taken a 'compromise position', opinions are also changing (see above). Furthermore, because the air-game is so abstract, I am not sure how playtesting will provide further evidence either way:-
- The in-game dynamics of Oblit AA vs air is already known (reducing power does not really affect this)
- Having Oblits with AA does not really influence the choice of other AA (Hellblades)
- Arguably, including the 'AA Stalker' actually reduces the need for Hellblades.

Rather than insisting on playtesting, could we get people to post lists that they would use giving reasons why they have chosen the relevant formations / units and how they would play them.

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