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World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:20 am 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 22 Jul. 2009, 10:25 )

Just go to the site, download the stuff. Have to use proxies, but space marines should do it readily enough.

You need to download the vassel engine
http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php
Then get the epic module here
http://www.mediafire.com/?jy41nkdijty

I'm only any good with doing silly human style armies, not sure if I would be able to get my head round frothing CC monsters!

Ok

What is the time difference between us? At the time of posting this it is 8:20PM in Australia?

I would be looking at doing Sunday (my time). That is the earliest at this stage. let me know

Cheers.....

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:53 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 22 Jul. 2009, 11:20 )

What is the time difference between us? At the time of posting this it is 8:20PM in Australia?

I would be looking at doing Sunday (my time). That is the earliest at this stage. let me know

Cheers.....

You are 4 hours 30 minutes ahead of me. I'm free to play from roughly 9:30am onwards.

I can actually only do week days and some Saturday mornings, weekends is when my wife is home from work so sitting in front of comp would get me crucified!

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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:05 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 22 Jul. 2009, 11:53 )

Quote: (frogbear @ 22 Jul. 2009, 11:20 )

What is the time difference between us? At the time of posting this it is 8:20PM in Australia?

I would be looking at doing Sunday (my time). That is the earliest at this stage. let me know

Cheers.....

You are 4 hours 30 minutes ahead of me. I'm free to play from roughly 9:30am onwards.

I can actually only do week days and some Saturday mornings, weekends is when my wife is home from work so sitting in front of comp would get me crucified!

Let's do next week then. Tuesday would be best, but will try for Monday.

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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:09 pm 
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I must be beyond the norm, as I take chaplains in all my assault units which includes terminator units. I figure that I will need to reduce the size bonus of the opposition by doing so.

In a particularly large game, I had 3 terminator units, 2 of which had chaplains and 1 with commander to allow the group charge.

I thought this was normal.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:29 pm 
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Yes it is. Check out the Epic UK tourny records and you rarely see an assault formation without a chaplain.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:37 pm 
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So that raises the question - why not allow 2? Would people then take 2 of them? Why not three? Basically do you think it is something a tourney player would 'max out' on?

sigh...

There is one formation because:
A/ I want them to be slightly different to other lists. i thought having a change might be a nice way to flavour this list.
B/There's also a terminator formation available as an upgrade to the berserker retinue so essentially you can take more than two just not in the way you know as they won't get to teleport and they'll need land raiders or dreadclaws to transport them around - thus reducing their "teleport monster effect". So I set the solely terminator formation at 0-1 for those who want a bit of teleport ability. This also limits how many teleport formations you get - so it's not just point and click with these guys.

Does that answer your questions any better?

And can I ask though, how you expect me to know exactly what a tourney player will max out on? They certainly could max out in my list (a whole 1 formation :laugh: ) but I'm pretty sure 1 teleport formation doesn't really count as maxing out....

I'm sorry, but it costs balloons. You can do it yes, but in most cases it isn't done. People tend to turn to Captains for second. I usually don't take second character as Captain IMO isn't worth it
My point still, is that theycan if they want. WEs termies CAN'T

Check out the Epic UK tourny records and you rarely see an assault formation without a chaplain.
Thanks for the back up. Case closed.  :laugh:
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:59 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 22 Jul. 2009, 12:37 )

And can I ask though, how you expect me to know exactly what a tourney player will max out on? They certainly could max out in my list (a whole 1 formation :laugh: ) but I'm pretty sure 1 teleport formation doesn't really count as maxing out....

Try and powergame it. Take all the stuff that has high returns for its points or disruptive abilities and take redundancies. Then attack :)

There is one formation because:
A/ I want them to be slightly different to other lists. i thought having a change might be a nice way to flavour this list.
B/There's also a terminator formation available as an upgrade to the berserker retinue so essentially you can take more than two just not in the way you know as they won't get to teleport and they'll need land raiders or dreadclaws to transport them around - thus reducing their "teleport monster effect". So I set the solely terminator formation at 0-1 for those who want a bit of teleport ability. This also limits how many teleport formations you get - so it's not just point and click with these guys.


In my experience that 'one off' formation is attractive even if overpointed (take siege sappers, the only overcosted formation in the army and yet you pretty much have to take them to cover the contingency of having to retake bunkers).

So if they were, say 400 points, while being worth 350, I would still take them, finding 50 points elsewhere to cover this because that teleport attack is a great deepstrike option to have. But I would no longer be looking to make it a mainstay of any attack (like some players with their 3 lots of terminators) so the 0-1 option becomes meaningless. Hell I would question whether or not I really needed it and maybe not always take it.

However cost it according to its 'worth' in this case say survivability or kill ratios, and I would take it every time for all those uncosted benefits, turning a 0-1 restriction into a 1.

Its not a negative point about this unit and formation - its just a general list building point in a competitive situation (which is what the lists are for). I prefer teh latter way of having give and take attempted to be built into lists, others prefer the more structured and predictable 0-x limit.

If here its for fluff rather than balance its a different arguement somewhat, as then you don't see its relative worth changing at different point levels (2000, 3000, 4000, 5000).

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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:29 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 22 Jul. 2009, 12:59 )

If here its for fluff rather than balance its a different arguement somewhat, as then you don't see its relative worth changing at different point levels (2000, 3000, 4000, 5000).

Honestly, the 0-1 is good up until about 3000 points. After this, the restriction would see it's worth decline as there is so much more that needs attention and these termies can then only play a small part.

In our games, we do not see Spaceships until the 4000+ point level. Hence we limit ourselves it seems to ground pounding and aircraft, all of which the teleporting termies will excel at. Once we start adding the drop pods and dare I say it, Dreadclaws, there may just be a shift to other larger non-terminator formations with dreads taking the charge.




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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:20 am 
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I think we should also keep an eye on the Black Legion Playtest changes (link below) as anything that changes there will no doubt have a flow-on effect to this and other cult lists as well (example: removing TK from the daemon Prince)

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 82;t=13462

Cheers...

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:22 am 
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Yep keeping an eye on it. And I've already removed the TK last week  :;):
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:02 am 
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OK, I have gone over the ideas so far about the Lord.

I am changing him to MW, +1A only and I increased his cost by 25 points. This will seem that he's a little underdone for a Khorne berserker commander, but it's a trade off for cost in the end.  This brings his compliment of attacks back to that of a normal SM commander but with an increased to hit value.

This then will also bring the Terminators and Berserker Retinues up by 25 points to 400 and 300 respectively.
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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:02 am 
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Just noticed something, Blood Slaughterer has a critical effect yet is an AV. You will need to take that out

Cheers...

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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:35 am 
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Based on the discussions on this board, I am going to take the below force tonight to try. I have made the following changes:

- World Eater Retinues cost 300 points
- World Eater Terminators cost 400 points
- Reduced Juggernauts to 375 points
- Bloodlord to have only EA +1 MW

Points: 3000
Activations: 8

1. World Eater Retinue    465 points
  Rhino x4
  Dreadnaughts x2
  Daemonic Pact

2. World Eater Retinue    465 points
  Rhino x4
  Dreadnaughts x2
  Daemonic Pact


3. World Eater Retinue    440 points
  Rhino x4
  Dreadnaughts x2

4. Terminators            525 Points
  Warlord                
  Daemon Prince Upgrade
  Daemonic Pact

5. Juggernaughts          375 Points

6. Cannons of Khorne      200 Points

7. Cannons of Khorne      200 Points

8. Brass Scorpions x2     250 Points

X. Bloodletters x4         80 Points

One weakness is going to be War Engines. I am hoping to either out maneuver or engage any war engine that shows up. See how we go.

Juggers are priced down due to their pure susceptibility (LV) and their lack of options for a character or anything actually. I also thought about removing the unit restriction, yet I was only taking 1 unit anyway so we shall see how we go.

In this I will test the terminators, and their teleporting ability with the potential for summoning to increase their numbers.

As for aircraft, oh well, not much I am going to do against them. Not sure if they will get their points values worth with them.

Thanks everyone that has contributed. I know I go on about theories not meaning much, yet I hope that this shows that I am personally listening and willing to try out what has been discussed. I am not afraid of being wrong if it helps balance the list

Cheers....




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Steve54
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:49 am 
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Whats the thinking behind having rhinos+dreadnoughts in the same retinues?

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