Right; read the list; i'm looking forward to giving it a whirl; i'm going to be trying out the following suggested changes though;

-Remove fearless from all but berserkers

-WE Detachment; 8 WE marines (with the stats in my last post); upgrade any number of units to berserkers @Xpts per unit.

-Chosen; use standard stats; allow upgrading to become berserkers (gain fearless, change to CC/FF capablities lose reapers?)

-Keep legionnaires (but without fearless!), reduce to 4/6 units to act more as scouts?

-Change bikers to standard statline (do berserkers ride bikes?!)

-Replace fleshounds stats with daemonic beasts(?)

-Like the inclusion of Lord of Battles and Daemon engines

-Possible removal of ravager/and or feral to make the list a bit more characterful?
(note: allowing cheap titans such as the above will allow for a war engine heavy list due to the ADDITION of the lord of battles; I would be wary of this possibility: I’ve stressed in other posts that I believe epic to be about giving armies CHARACTER; sometimes less is more :-))

-What about allowing normal daemon engines as an upgrade too?

-Add a juggernaut formation (perhaps replacing bikes?; see note on character above)
Suggested stats:
Juggernaut
move: 20cm, armour: 3+, CC3+ FF5+
Small arms 15cm FF only
Khornate Axes CC only
Juggernaut Charge: CC only, Extra Attacks +1, MW
SPECIAL RULES: Mounted, Infiltrate, Fearless
6-8 units, allow upgrades for a lord, daemonic summoning, and icon bearer.

OTHERWISE: I really do like the idea of faction specific lists (and think that you're doing great work so far); just not ones bogged down with cookie cutter fearless units! Each has got to work in it's own characterful way.
Hope the above notes aren't too blunt; they're ones that i tapped into notepad whilst reading the army list.
R>

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Six months ago I made my own list. I´ve been playtesting it and have made a few changes. Overall, I think it´s quite a good list. Here it is:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/yndvps

Cool stuff :-)
I've just used Shermo's document as an outline to try presenting an army list that takes into the accounts for the suggestions i made above; any changes of import are made in bold; this could probably do with streamlinging a bit more with Dobbs'y list.

Here is the link

http://www.sendspace.com/file/dobnex

EDIT: I forgot to put in Khorne Assualt Engines Don't know if i'd include stalkers...but thier inclusion seems to be consensus so assume they're there too!

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Well I'm back from holidays and now have had a chance to review some of the points raised here.

While stubborn may be a possible rule I think a couple of people make the point that "it's inferior to Fearless and why would one cult marine formation be lesser than another" so with that in mind I'm going to stick with Fearless and the beserker units and a few of the Daemon based units.

I'm putting back a blood rage rule albeit in a changed form. Shermo's rule gives a better feel of the Khorne rage problem IMO and I think it also helps balance up the issue of fearless that some folks have regarding this. If a formation with fearless is a big problem numbers-wise it can be offset somewhat by the fact you don't necessarily have complete control of your forces - thus putting them in harm's way when you don't necessarily want to. It's only a starting point really. If it becomes apparent it's not that fun to use I will most likely remove it.

Regarding the issue of War Engine heavy list - The World Eaters are a mish-mash of unit types nowadays so I feel players should be fairly free to use what they want. Of course, the points cost of having these unit types quickly becomes apparent when building a list, so I don't foresee too many issues there. I will also be restricting the list via the Core/Support/Upgrade system.

I think I'll put the Juggernauts into the list. They're pretty much Khorne only so what could be more World Eaterish Plus I'm sure many Chaos players would like to use the miniatures they have.

To my thinking there IS no difference between Black Legion and World Eaters Berzerkers; are there in the stats? If so: why?

I would like to see and possibly test version 1.01 as soon as it is ready. Our group is starting to get a few games under our belts and understand the rules more, hence I would be happy to start play testing this force.

So c'mon dobbsy, get me the list    

On a side note, I think the following:

1. Squads should stay as 8 man squads - for all the reasons of fluff, the khorne magic number is eight. Regardless of whether minis are hard to buy, that is not a consideration here and the rules should not be changed to suit this. I spent months getting together 62 stands of berzerkers (almost 8 retinues of them - 2 more stands to go..). Dammit, I am going to use them!!       In my view, the 8 rule should only be for infantry.

2. Only the berzerkers and dreads should have fearless. I personally would not like to see the berzerkers lose feerless in place of its poor cousin stubborn. Berzerkers are not stubborn, they are insane. They should fight to the last man. That is why they are so feared.

3. What happened to the Juggers? Are they relegated to character models only or just 'bikes'? I would like to see juggers in there in place of bikes or as another unit. They would have a better armour, less move than a bike, and an extra attack.

4. I am unsure how realistic to a khorne strategy this would be, however why not do away with the air suppoort. Tzeentch was known for it's flyers, were khornate forces?


I am happy to test any list that comes out of this discussion. The fact remains however that these guys are supposed to be dead scary if they get into HTH. Other than that, they could be seen as cannon fodder with some nasty cannons and hard assault engines.

Then again, I may just change my tune after playtesting the rules and seeing how 'broken they may be   . Until then however, it is all just conjecture and discussion.

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I've been thinking of new ideas for the list:

1. The armoured company should be in support formations. After all, WE don't make extensive use of tanks. It should be a more infantry oriented army.

2. It would be a good idea to remove the rule "if you score a 6 in the strategy roll you gain 1d3 daemons..." and change it for something related with kills done in CC. That would give the list a more "Khorney" feel.  

3. Perhaps giving the juggernauts an invulnerable save as all daemons have?.

I don't see a big problem with fearless in this list. It doesn't have that much firepower (as death guard or emperors children may have) so it's compensated.

Edit: Terminators should have 1 reaper autocannon or no reaper autocannon at all instead of two.

Remove the combat blades from all tanks.

Also, daemon engines should have initiative 2+.  

How about 1 berzerker/chosen/dreads unit of the player's choice gains the infiltration rule for that turn? That could demonstrate the bloodlust in the unit as it does everything in it's power to reach the enemy after receiving the favour of Khorne....?

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Oooh

I like some of these suggestions!!

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I was thinking a prize in form of extra daemons, but perhaps your idea may be much better. We have to think about it. Thanks  

Well, with that list you are still able to field an all-fearless army. As I´ve said before, I don´t think that having many fearless units in a WE army is much of an issue. Their firepower is very limited.