I personally would make it 5 Blood Slaughterers for 225 points. With no shooting and no FF, they are seriously an under-performing formation.

The increased number and adjusted points will assist these guys to;
1. be taken as a serious choice
2. survive past an initial round of movement.

At present, you would not buy these over Defilers.

Cheers......

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I've used the list quite a bit over recent weeks (about 10 games - 2000pts up to 3000pts).
I've roughly a 50/50 win/loss ratio with it against AMTL, Eldar, Marines and Guard (which seems good for the list to me).

Since the initiative ratings of the Daemon engines changed, I've had few games with them (and then I really only used the Defilers and Desecrators). I often needed to use them when retaining (after the target has been primed for BM's) and a 3+ roll just isn't good enough odds. I know this is out of your control BL but it means my experience with the list is not as complete as it could be.

I find myself using teleporting Terminators as my primary weapon (which can get a little risky but it is always fun either way). I often use a formation of Khorne Berzerkers and a dreadnought in a Thunderhawk. Indeed, I love the Chaos T/hawk option (that was the main reason I took up this list). I also like the inclusion of Obliterators.

I used this list today (3000pts):
- Hounds Squadron
- 4x Terminator retinues (1 with a Daemon Prince)
- 2x Traitor Retinues with Rhinos and Hunters
- 1x Traitor Retinue with 2x Chaos Spawn and 2x Obliterators (BTS used to garrison on the Blitz on overwatch).
- Chosen Scout Marines with Rhinos

This list hung on to win against Eldar today in 4 turns (highly influenced by the Eldar player failing to activate 4 formations on the final turn). All my opponents dread the Terminators but I haven't heard any of them criticize the Red Corsairs list at all.

Personally, I really enjoy the list. It allows me to play the game in my favourite way (aggresive assaults as often as possible). I like the different Battle Titan weapon loadouts (I'll be using the Warlord in the next week or so).

Will the Chaos Spawn be keeping their D3 extra attacks in CC? I like this alot but is it in line with other Chaos lists?

Another lists I've used recently (2500pts):
- Terminator Retinue with Daemon Prince, Daemonic Pact, Icon Bearer, Chaos Champion & Obliterator
- Terminator Retinue with Daemonic Pact, Icon Bearer & Obliterator
- Thunderhawk
- Terminator Retinue
- Thunderhawk
- Khorne Berzerkers & Dreadnought
- Thunderhawk
- Greater Daemon and 7 Lessar Daemons

This list beat an AMTL force but lost against Eldar.

All up, I'm a big fan of the list. I don't claim to be a highly credentialed list reviewer but I don't see any glaring overpowered options. I'll put the question to my fellow players and see if they have any comments to make.

Thanks for this list BlackLegion - thumbs up from me.

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Onyx

Do you realise each of those lists is illegal?

I think you forgot this line:

(One Black Legion Elite Formation may be included in the army for each Retinue selected.)

Maybe what you have shown is that such a restriction is not necessary, or more likely, Terminator formations can be moved into the retinues section?

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All the Daemon Engine formations have a 2+ Initiative in the Red Corsairs list as there is no hated faction rule.

I assume the Chaos Spawn is the same as in the current LatD list.

Also i'm a bit worried that you base your army mainly on Terminator Retinues as Red Corsairs and Chaos Space Marines in gernal aren't renowned for massed Terminator assaults

Will try 5 Blood Slaughterers for 250 pts in V3.21 and look how they behave.

EDIT:
@frogbear: What list are you using? There is no restriction in V3.20 of the Red Corsairs.

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Non of my lists are illegal according to the 3.2 list (the latest one available).

BL, Terminators are good in any list and if they're available they will be taken. I'm not too familiar with the Red Corsair fluff but it wouldn't change how I play. I do have the luxury of having 16 stands of Chaos Terminators and I really enjoy using them. I don't think that makes the list unbalanced (or I'd be winning more games).

I asked about the Chaos Spawn because as I read it, they don't get the extra D3 CC attacks in the LatD list.

There also seems to be a difference between the LatD Daemon Prince and the Red Corsairs version (LatD gets 2 extra MW attacks for small arms whereas the Red Corsairs Prince only gets one extra MW FF attack).

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Onyx have you read this thread?
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19001

And i don't say that using lots of Terminators is unbalancing. I say that it is somewhat against the fluff. Terminators are elite forces and not the main body of a CSM force.

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I think it shows why the restriction is necessary and should be included.

I would rather move Terminators to the suport formation rather than give them some hard 0-x caps.
That will leave Hounds and Traitors as the only core choices though.


For now:
Proposed changes for V3.21:
- Blood Slaughterer Pack increased to 5 units and cost decreased to 225pts
- Blood Slaughterer upgrade decreased to +50pts per unit
- Terminator Retinue moved to Support Formations (and renamed to Annihilation Force as the Apocalypse formation?)

Opinions?

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Uhm, looks like I had both RC3.2 and the Black Legion list open (while comparing costs) and mixed up the lists... Oops!

Sorry about that

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I think this is all good and thanks for listening to the feedback on the Blood Slaughterers. They are not overpowered, and you should not have any issue with the change. If no one plays them after this decrease, I believe they could drop another 25 points, but best to be safe at this time.

Terminator Change - Keep the name as Terminators. We just got them renamed back from Chosen. Not calling them terminators will cause confusion with newer players. At present, the list can be picked up and played easily. Renaming the Terminators is really unnecessary.

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Yes BL, I've seen the thread that you linked to.
If Terminators are moved I could still legally make the list I used yesterday (indeed, I could more or less make it using the Black Legion list and it would be cheaper). I really see little reason to move them to the support section (and no reason to change the name at all). I will not use a list that places a hard cap on Terminators. Yes they are a headache for the opponent but they are much easier to deal with than Marine Terminators (no ATSKNF). I've seen them broken quite easily on many occasions.

I only included 2 lists previously. In many lists I've used there was only one or two Terminator Retinues. I really don't see this as a problem and I respectfully disagree with dptdexys.

I'd really hate to see my few Red Corsair lists as a reason to change the list. Our games have not shown any overpowered tendencies with the Red Corsair list.

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Also remember that the level of Epic itself is also not representative of a CSM force. If we were playing 20K point games, I would see your point. At 3000 points, it is representative of a small portion of a total force. No reason why Terminator heavy formations cannot be seen as a specialised gathering for a mission.

I do see where you are going as well. I guess we all suffer the same decision in the end...

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I understand this but for units like Defilers and Blood Slaughterers, they are assault orientated formations that will often be used when retaining after the target has been primed.
A 3+ activation (or 4+ if any BM's are on the Daemon Engines) just isn't good enough odds for me to rely on so I've steered away from Daemon Engines. When most of the rest of the army activates on 1+, the Daemon Engines stick out like sore thumbs.

As I stated, I know this is out of your hands BL but it is an issue I have with certain units in the list.

Needless to say, I agree with this!

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One thing I did for the World Eaters was introduce the Blood Rage as a KHORNE rule (not just World Eaters). It allows a +1 on an engage and -1 on any other action if enemy are within Charge range.

It is my hope that it does see use in other lists.

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