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Defilers
wraeththu
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:16 pm 
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Well to stick my nose in it. Personally I am not one for wanting to change something just cause 40k changed the rules. But I agree that I do like to stay close to the feel of the 40k stats. Here is the criteria I would want to stick with.

The armour staying at 4+. All daemon engines have Invulnerable Save and are Fearless, so that stays. I agree that Indirect Fire should be dropped.

I think the core things up for change are the movement (up to 20cm max), add Infiltrate, maybe change CC to 3+, tweak some of the weapon options. But I do not want to bump the cost over 100pts and would prefer to keep it at 75pts. If the model goes up to 100pts without Indirect Fire most will opt for a land raider over the Defiler.

So here is what I would suggest.

Defiler - 75pts

Armoured Vehicle 15cm 4+ 4+ 3+

Defiler Cannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+

Twin Reaper Autocannon 30cm AP3+/AT5+

Defiler Heavy Flamer 15cm AP4+ Ignore Cover
and (15cm) Small Arms Extra Attack (+1), Ignore Cover

Battle Claws (base) Assault Weapon Extra Attack (+1), Macro Weapon

Notes:  Fearless. Infiltrator, Invulnerable Save. Walker.

Loses Indirect Fire, swaps Twin Lascannons for Twin Reaper Autocannons and gains Infiltrator.

OR

Defiler - 100pts

Armoured Vehicle 20cm 4+ 3+ 3+

Defiler Cannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+

Twin Lascannon 45cm AT4+

Defiler Heavy Flamer 15cm AP4+ Ignore Cover
and (15cm) Small Arms Extra Attack (+1), Ignore Cover

Battle Claws (base) Assault Weapon Extra Attack (+1), Macro Weapon

Notes:  Fearless. Infiltrator, Invulnerable Save. Walker.

Additional changes increasing the speed, improving CC to 3+, adding Infiltrator, but it loses Indirect Fire.

-Audrey

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Soren
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:44 pm 
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(wraeththu @ Dec. 18 2007,15:16)
QUOTE
I think the core things up for change are the movement (up to 20cm max), add Infiltrate, maybe change CC to 3+, tweak some of the weapon options. But I do not want to bump the cost over 100pts and would prefer to keep it at 75pts. If the model goes up to 100pts without Indirect Fire most will opt for a land raider over the Defiler.

Sorry, your both stats are clearly worth more than 75 or 100 pts. This thing packs up reasonable firepower and alwasy at least two attacks in CC and FF. it is better in every category than a dreadnought, making the little buggers more useless than they are now. Firepower is near on a MBT with three main weapons and the speed is far to good. garrison and 30cm on engage with that amount of attacks and firepower is clearly more than 75 points, not speaking of issue 2 for 100. Also fearless is imho better than ATSKNF in nearly every category.

I don?t want to see a new Death Wheel or Decimator "Debakel" with Chaos lists

Sorry, a no go for me. (If I had anything to say)




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Irondeath
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:24 pm 
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Soren, they are upgrades to already expensive BL retinues in the BL list. A straight comparison to LRus or other MBT that can be fielded in their own formation, where maximum advantage can be extracted from a units abilities therfor only carries that far.

And it?s "debacle" ?:p , plus, while people seem fixated on the MW/IC issue, there is _very_ little criticism of other units/formations in the BL list, and close to _zero_ with regards to the LatD.

Compared to almost anything else (cough, Swordwind, cough), it would appear the Chaos playtesters did an excellent job.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:17 pm 
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Really? I thought a lot of units had come in for criticism (for being under/over powered or just wrong).

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Irondeath
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:35 pm 
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Care to name a few?

Feral/Decimator -> MW/IC
Raptors -> Internal balance vs. Bikers + New Codex issues
Armour-> slightly overcosted
Summoning-> underpowered/overcosted (overcosted IMO)
Ravager Titan-> Plain sucks, rarely taken (would have typed "never", but there?s a recent batrep up where one was fielded)

That?s not much compared to, again, the  original Swordwind lists, or indeed the often-cited-as-perfectly-balanced LRB IG (Vultures, Deathstrikes, Titan wpn ranges, Commissars, artillery internal balance, Griffons, Rough Riders etc...) or the clearly overproced LRB SM.

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Crabowl
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:56 pm 
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Anyway, while you're tuning the Defiler to match the needs of chaos, could someone tell me why chaos dreadnought is better than SM dreadnought.

SM Dreadnought with fist: AV 15cm 4+ 4+ 4+
AP5+/AT5+/30cm, +MWCC
Walker, ATSKNF

Chaos Dreadnought: AV 15cm 4+ 4+ 4+
AP4+/AT5+/45cm, +MWCC
Walker, Fearless

So could SM Dreadnought get some love too and get 45cm range on assault cannon and AP4+? While I'm rambling could assault marines get FF4+ since they all have plasma pistols in their pants, just like raptors have meltas? Hunters could use something too, like 3 x AP5+/AT5+/AA5+/45cm and RA+TRA. Pretty please?

Even when the chaos dread is better than a marine dread, nobody in their right mind would ever take one when there's defilers. Why not just erase the dread entry entirely since its useless?




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:02 pm 
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The BL army is *slightly* overpowered IMHO, enough that our regular Chaos player has probably the best win / loss ratio in our group.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:14 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 18 2007,19:02)
QUOTE
The BL army is *slightly* overpowered IMHO, enough that our regular Chaos player has probably the best win / loss ratio in our group.

I'd almost go so far as to say there are, primarily, only two units that are overpowered/undercosted in the Black Legion list:

Decimators

Feral Titans

Everything else seems fairly reasonable for their points internally... even if regular Space Marines seem to have gotten the short end of the stick overall.

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Charad
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:20 pm 
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Daemon prince, raptors..? otherwise BL list is okay. :)

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Tygre
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:13 am 
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I think it is important to remember the weapons carried by default on the defiler a battle cannon, a single reaper autocannon a single heavy flamer and 2 dreadnought close combat weapons.  I constantly see mention of twin heavy flamers etc, but it is only armed with a single heavy flamer.

The ablilitys of the defiler in 40k is the same as a typical deamon possessed dreadnought if it could fleet and carry a battlecannon.
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rpr
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:04 am 
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Bl has underpriced retinue, Forlorn, raptors, Obliterators,...
Maybe the entire army is in balance which hides that fact.
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Steve54
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:08 am 
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If that was the case then surely it would be a severely overpowered dominant army which it clearly isn't.

When the MW barrages are sorted out then there are very few, quite minor, issues.

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Soren
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:43 am 
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Steve: kay, the MW barrages ARE not sorted out, several formations ARE still underprized and there are coming issues to make some formations even better. And the wheel of doing super-chaos-units is spinning again. Just look at the thread..... And this unit we are referring on in this thread is not only a BL issue, it is present in every single Chaos army and has major impact. (keyword demolisher change)

It?s better to break now then wait years to correct annoying errors. (May I refer on the Demolisher change which also affects several lists and broke some of them in a really impressive manner)




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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:56 pm 
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I think that the point Steve is trying to convey is that in the UK tournament scene we have not seen BL or LatD suddenly winning tournament after tournament. Yes they win games, but they are also losing them as well.

We find at the UK tournaments that if a tactic is found to be very powerful, it will be noted and used by more than one player. This is fine as it becomes worthwhile to turn up with a force to combat this as you stand a likely chance to face that army. We then start a cycle of changing lists which adds spice to the tournaments. This said I still find that Ork and IG lists are still the most rounded and suitable for my tournament style of play.

Of course I dread the day when every game I play is against an opponent with a spacecraft to OB my hoards on the first turn. But that's gaming.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:25 pm 
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Exactly Tim

I'd never heard of problems before with the retinue and forlorn hope costs?

The issues I was aware of were-

Ferals, Decimators - MW-Ignore cover barrages - possibly change to Ignore Cover-disrupt

Daemon summoning - possibly too expensive (personally I think its fine)

Raptors - stats/cost tweak to aid balance with bikes/reflect 40k

Greater Daemons - too expensive/difficult to summon

Defilers - change to reflect 40k

Undivided mark - completely redundant - remove

Land Raiders/Predators - points/stat change following SM changes

Ravager - poor stats rarely used


Personally I can live with the Ravager, LR/Pred changes aren't vital but are obvious in any review to follow SM, the Undivided mark- just tidies up the list, and the daemons as I have found them really effective with practice.

All that really NEEDS changing is the Feral/Decimator MWs (and then only if the new MW barrage rules are adopted) , the internal balance between bikes/raptors and the defiler as it has altered so much in the Chaos codex

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