The main boost I think Hena is +1MW for a small formation but Leader for large formations - far more important!

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Not so important for 4 strong formations - they are likely to break and be left as a two stand remnant. Yes they clear the bm's, but they are often quite ineffective for fighting.

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Small formations are simply far more vulnerable than larger ones. I see what you're saying about the MW - but that's a static bonus we are assuming the points cost is included. However, in general larger formations are - to my mind - simply worth more and TSKNF mitigates this somewhat (that's what TSKNF was for!). This probably has a bell curve, eventually adding more units starts eating into maneuverability and activation count (Ork formations seem to get bulk discounts), but that doesn't mean it doesn't hold true for very small formations. This is compounded by the fact that a broken character is a useless character (at least as far as extra attacks are concerned), and one in a larger formation is more likely to make contact with the enemy.

I've had some experience playing with small Deathwatch formations. What I discovered was that I needed to drop the basic points value below what I would have expected - interestingly, the formation includes a "free" character. In the end, the points cost for the formation is such that in comparison with other formations, the character is cheap or "free". However, playesting bore out again and again that 4-strong formations just get broken like nobodies buisness, which takes your expensive character out of action. This made anything that bulks up the formation (in this case, transports like razorbacks) disproportionately more valuble, so I upped the cost of these. The net result was an "undercosted" basic formation and "overcosted" additional units. Which is exactly what we're looking at here.

Marketing.  Perception management.

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Neal

Indeed.

I can't recall anyone discussing the pricing of the units and not taking the Lord into account.

The Lord is simply a part of the price of the formation and if the Lord somehow has some additional impact that is causing the formation to be more effective than it warrants then the simplest solution is to increase the price.

Most of these arguments are simply about it being "free" though. Which is silly and a waste of time.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

If it 'aint broke don't fix it.

I have to say that not a single person in my gaming group has ever mentioned this issue in any form with the exception of the Avatar.

The only place I ever see it is online by people who also toss around comments about the list being broken, over-powered etc etc.

These people are also usually unwilling to test any changes and so I fail to see how they are really doing anything other than simply complaining for sport.

As such I can't see why we'd change the list to accommodate them.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Pixelgeek: It may be an non-issue to you, but it is an issue to a lot of people.

If it's included in the cost of the units, why does a small formation pay less for the character then a large one?

Lord I: Large formations have a drawback over small ones too - less activations, and as we all know large activation counts are extremely effective in epic. I don't see why a character should cost more for a large formation, that just encourages popcorning.

And what about the supreme commander? He really is free, not "free".

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I don't field a Plaguereaper, but I do field a Red Corsairs army from time to time!

Both myself and the other regular chaos-playing guy in my gaming group don't (Or in his case, no longer) use the Black Legion army list... it causes too much ire.

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I acknowledged that it was created after this list, but I don't see that as a reason to exclude it now. At the very least it should be mentioned in the notes for the Decimator that it could also represent a plague reaper.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Well I have written up the latest test, and the results were - interesting.

Daemons
The 'big' chosen, + GD, + DP and no less than '4' LD advanced through a storm of OW fire - and then the GD died to my usual luck . Even so, the remainder of the formation had enough normal and MW dice to wipe out the remainder of the IG HQ. But it did raise a couple of questions:-
1) Do the formations that lose units "sucked into the void" get BMs as a result - we presumed so, but it is not totally clear.

2a) A carefull reading of Daemons and summoning suggests that the daemon pool contains 'factionless' daemons. It is only when the daemons are summoned to a formation that they turn into the relevant type for that formation - is this correct? We played 'Khorne' Chosen and 'Tzeench' Retinue and Forlorn Hope, so if correct it seems that the greater Daemon could have become either. However, this seems to make daemons even more powerfull as you can tailor them to suit the intended strategy for any given formation. If this is true, they are definitely too cheap.

2b) This also suggests that a damaged Korne GD could return as a damaged Tzeench or Slaneesh GD - which does seem a little odd.

3) Given the power of the LD, I do wonder if the GD is actually worth it on the current costings. Especially as, if you only throw a total of '6' (and assuming you have sufficient LDs) 6x Khorne LDs give you 12 assault dice, while the GD only gets 6x dice (albeit with instant kills if the TK attacks strike home).

4) Is there anything stopping people from adding the upgrades to a single "uber" unit? I would presume that the DP cannot be granted the other characteristics as he replaces the unit, but just want to check.

5) If you have an Icon bearer in a formation, is retaining daemons mandatory, or can you opt to send some back to the pool? This is not entirely clear, so we presumed not.

6) In the game, I had 75 points spare at the end which were spent on the second obliterator. In hindsight, I  think three more daemons might have been better - 7 LD was not really sufficient for four formations.

7) Final thought - we missed the point that when Chosen#1 broke, the remaining two daemons should have vanished.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Warlords and other 'characters'
Having the Warlords included in the cost of formations while having to pay for other 'characters' is a little strange, but I do like the intentional restriction imposed by the slots. So, I tend to agree with those who would prefer to pay for the Warlord and Supreme commander, especially as they are Fearless and have MW attacks like the marines. However, I would suggest that they should probably be 50 points each, while the formation costs would drop less; perhaps -25 points to reflect the apparent undercosting at present?

Also this would need carefull wording to prevent a formation getting a DP, a Chaos Champ and a Warlord - else you are in danger of creating another 'Harlequin' style formation especially when added to Chosen units. It really begs the question whether adding all these things to a Chosen formation is a bit OTT?

For example in the recent game, while TRC was able to kill off the 'uber' Chosen formation eventually, it did need a combination of my extremely foolish playing, half of TRC's army and quite a lot of luck to destroy a formation totalling 745 points (including the daemons)!

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Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

The other characters are optional and most were added as part of the changes to the summoning system and were done a lot later in the development process.

However, I would suggest that they should probably be 50 points each, while the formation costs would drop less; perhaps -25 points to reflect the apparent undercosting at present?

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Only if they are not daemons I would suspect but there may be other opinions.

2a) A carefull reading of Daemons and summoning suggests that the daemon pool contains 'factionless' daemons. It is only when the daemons are summoned to a formation that they turn into the relevant type for that formation - is this correct?

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

How is it coming back? Once summoned it doesn't go back into the pool to come back later.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread