Citation:
http://web.archive.org/web/200406121226 ... freaks.pdf

There are plenty of examples of Jervis saying the same thing in various other articles, and several times in the core rulebook too IIRC.

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What about 5pt Rhinos instead of 10?



Wasn't there talk of an AA Defiler? That would fit into the fluff a lot easier than a new Chaos Rhino variant.

What's wrong with solving a problem?
Putting AA on the oblits is similar in concept/method and then brings up more problems, like having AA that's too slow.

Sure if you build large retinues it will be expensive to transport them. That really isn't a problem to me as having free rhinos to allow huge upgrades seems like having your cake and eating it too (a retinue with havocs is approaching the firepower and size of an IG mech coy for just 25pts more with better armor and initiative). If upgrades were made to be "take 1-4 havocs" or "take 1-4 cult marines" you could mechanize them cheaper (i.e. take two units and only pay for 1 rhino).

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Another option to solve the mech. style's lack of AA: Would it be unreasonable to allow a unit of Obliterators to be transported in a Land Raider?

On the Stalker, I once showed Jervis the proposed stats and he said he thought the idea was pretty sensible and said "They (the Chaos Legions) must have had something for AA (in pre-heresy times)".


There was; JJ also liked that idea, for what it's worth.


Not entirely unreasonable IMO.

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He certainly says that generic lists are tougher to balance but the article doesn't state that he wants to make specific lists as an overarching design goal. THat clearly isn't the case as the core rulebook is made up of generic army lists.

He seems to be talking about making specific lists as a way to introduce new forces or troop types without having to update the old lists.

Specifically to the Speed Freaks, that list is a result of having to limit the core, generic, Ork list as there were some very severe balance issues with older versions when people used it to build Speed Freak lists. One of our local players built a series of almost unbeatable Ork lists that showed how bad that list could be and so it was worked in such a way to make those types of armies illegal. The Speed Freaks list has fewer options, fewer issues with balance and allowed people to build something that was unworkable with the the generic Ork list in the rulebook.

The Feral Ork list is another example of what he is talking about. Adding a new army list that is very specific to include new units.

I don't think that what he is doing is coming out against generic lists in general but generic lists as a way to expand the game.

Clearly, again, what was being done with the Chaos BL list was making a generic Chaos list. And he is correct, they are a PITA to balance. I would assume that if GW hadn't knee-capped SG that what we would have seen going forward was Legion specific Chaos lists to add new models in a manner similar to the Ferals and Speed Freaks.

I think you have to be squinting pretty hard to read the article that way. The second sentence in particular is quite unambigous.

And as I said, this isn't the only time he can be found saying that Epic list design is intended to be specific, every time.

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There is nothing wrong with solving a problem. My point is that the model doesn't exist in any way shape or form in the background. It was created specifically to address the AA problem.

I don't like expanding out of the background in that sort of manner.

I like the idea of AA Defilers a lot better in any case. Its an existing unit, its an obvious expansion of the unit and it doesn't require us to make something up.

I don't really ever recall him saying that and its pretty clear from the way the core lists have been created that this wasn't the case.

Its a sideline topic though and I don't know that its really relevant to the BL list in any case since that was meant to be a generic list.

The article I linked to clearly states that you are wrong there, referencing the Steel Legion and the Codex Astartes lists as being specific in style and not generic.

And it's only really on that ground that I object to tank companies becoming a core formation in the Black Legion list. To me, the Black Legion is Chaos Space Marines at its heart, with other formation types in support. My concern about all-AV armies is more on "fluff" grounds than it is on balance grounds.

I realise that some books have presented the Black Legion as having lots of tanks, but I still see them very much as a support element of the army, and not part of its bedrock... my personal opinion is that tank formations as core would feel much better in an Iron Warriors army list (and indeed, I believe they have that option in their experimental list).

If there are activation issues, then a few more smaller Infantry type formations in the core section would feel better to me.

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Can't see any reason why not.



I recall him saying the same thing too. The rest of the design team didn't hear it though as they've fleshed out the Pre-heresy period without it though :-)

I agree that it seems a reasonable thing. The lack of AA is a throwback to this bizarre idea that Chaos forces didn't have long-ranged fire and it most certainly makes no sense.

Its a weird bit of background that we are stuck with though and I think that the problem is easy to resolve using the existing units that we have.

There is also the idea that the BL list shouldn't necessarily be a clone of the SM list. The SM list has Rhino based AA because, in part, because the aircraft for the Imperials are part of the Guard. Independent SM formations therefore require some sort of Marine based AA.

The Chaos forces have their own dedicated aircraft and so the necessity for a Rhino based AA unit isn't there and we already have Defilers that can have AA variants produced.

They still aren't as fast mind you but perhaps a combination of aircraft and Defiler AA will be enough to solve the problem?

Well, that seems to be the easiest way to solve the mech. AA problem without recourse to using the Stalker or a Defiler variant with AA guns.

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Keep in mind that background-wise BL is as generic chaos as you can get, so if you're going to call the list "Black Legion" it should be able to represent multiple allegiances at the least. Since each faction has it's own style (more or less), you're going to get different play styles as well.

Pixelgeek - I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, as I don't have any problem with stalkers not having a place in the background.

On the armored core formations, I'm not sure it'll be a spam problem. Most other spam armies tend to have glaring weaknesses upon testing. You'd end up with a weak minervan list spamming armored companies, which would be a waste of time, money, and be a loser.

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What Jervis writes there is:


But then he also writes


If he is suggesting that you use the SM list for Blood Angels and the Steel Legion list for Cadians then I am at a loss to see how he is actually saying that those are specific army lists. In fact he appears to be saying the exact opposite.

In any case, this is a tangential issue.

Certainly something to test to see if it helps with the issue.

Saying it's acceptable to Counts As your models and use another army list to play them with does not mean that the list is suddenly generic.

He's just saying it's ok to use your red painted marines as Codex Astartes Marines, or indeed your blue painted Marines as Blood Angels Marines.


It is not, because you are saying that the Black Legion army list is a "generic" army list, and using that to justify including armoured companies in the core section of the list.

I am pointing out that Epic army lists are never meant to be generic. They are all supposed to be specific.

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