Define balance... They need play - period. There's not enough proof either way to say they're unbalanced even.

The general acceptance on these forums (I have found) is that new lists should play establihed lists to gain their balance.

When games are so scarce, why not take every opportunity to make the game count against those opinions rather than have games that will not really count towards that 'measuring stick'? I am only speaking from experience from being on the end of these debates.

If it is a fun game, go right ahead. If it is for playtests that are to count towards the playtests of the lists, then you will want to go with what the decision makers are going to want.

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Oh I understand what's needed, I just don't think any list will ever be truly "balanced" as it's purported to be. There's far too many variables. Play skill level, for one. That alone means no list will ever be up to a so called "balance" unless the top players/geniuses hammer it out for months against each other using every opponent army available. Far too many mistakes can be made by lesser players to make any batrep truly worthwhile. It's just not feasible. You can only pen whatever batrep you get to play for posterity and a reasonable system of feedback.

In terms of 1Ksons v SW, it may be seen as a waste of time by some but not where I'm coming from. There's no point putting two lists together in a supplement and they be completely one-sided games. All supplements in the pipeline - especially in the Nemesis project - will require the list contained in them to play each other. That's why I was asking Neal about a vassal game.

So the TS and SW will be pretty good balanced against each other but against armies not of the suppplement they will be possibly unbalanced.

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I think you're missing my point BL. There's absolutely no way to tell if the TS v SW will be balanced against each other as there have been no games played as far as I know. And as I said, in terms of both playing against other non-supplement lists, the same goes - there's not been enough playtest reports to say either way.

I know that there was until now no game of TS vs SW.
The argument was under the assumption of experimental list vs experimental list where the outcome would likely be that both experimental lists would be balanced against each other but probably unbalanced against every other list.

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Understood, but it's still a necessary process regardless of whether people feel it's usable as official reporting.

Neal, back on the list, is it necessary to have both the Defiler and the Deceiver in the list? As the Deceiver is a dedicated Defiler, it seems superfluous to have both types in a Cult list.

Well it's a good way to discern how certain units behave. But for fine tuning i recommend playtesting against established/officiallists.

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So, does anyone actually have anything to say about the TSons?

Had a quick review over the list.

Characters have 'Character' in their Notes. Is this needed if the unit type is Character?

TS Adeptus: Do you see them functioning like Warp Spiders? The reason I ask is because of the First Strike. What is the reasoning for the first strike that is over and beyond any other teleporter? They have First Strike for both CC and FF right?

TS Dreadnought. Should it be armour 4+ or 3+? If it is a fluff reason that is fine. I just thought all dreads went to 3+ Armour. I may be incorrect (?)

Deciever special Note: "Heavy flamer grants Firefight attack the Ignore Cover ability." - This is unnecesary as it is already in the (15cm) stat.

Why not have 'Warp Flame' on the Rhinos as well? Is it a cost thing? Seems strange that it is the only 'marine' vehicle without this ability

Tz Lesser Daemons. You have 4 types in there. Although fluffy, do you really think all are necessary? Personally I would think ones such as Screamers should be left for the Daemon list. I would think two Lesser Daemons types is sufficient for what is needed - one for the move and the other for the closer combat potential. Horrors and Flamers could easily be combined.


Now to the list...

Dreadclaws: I was looking at this. You have two core formations teleporting and on the purchase of a fellowship you can buy up two Rubric Terminators who also teleport. An idea would be to cut out the Dreadclaw drop - this would flavour the army towards the teleporters showing up as elite units. Afterall, do you really see automatons quickly marshalling out of Dreadclaws? My image of TS Rubric Marines as marching across a field taking on the hits and still pressing on slowly (much like an undead force). I do not see them really using 'blitzkrieg' as their element of warfare.

Disk Riders: That is a huge points slump. Any thoughts on reducing their numbers so as to make them a more viable choice?

Defiler machines: I see you do not have these as a stand alone unit. At 250 points for 4, do you think that they would be a distraction away from the flavour of a 'Marine' list (Preds and L.Raiders) that you currently have? As upgrades, I see the Deciever maybe being taken for its AA, however why would you when you can get 3 Interceptors for 75 points more?

Doomwing Interceptors: The datafax calls them Doomwing Fighters. This is confusing. Possible to gain parity with just one name for these?

That is all I have time for now. I hope the above helps in some way or inspires some ideas.

Cheers Neal.

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I had a question (above) about the Deceiver/Defiler.

I think they aren't really both necessary. I haven't seen anyone take enough of either to really get a sense of flavor and feel from them, so I left them both in.


Probably just a holdover from old conventions. I'll make it match.


I hadn't thought of them working like Warp Spiders. There are obvious mechanical similarities, but they don't feel anything like them in play.

I wrote a unit description that describes the First Strike abilities, but I don't think I had it in before I attached the file.



Whatever BL is. I'll check it and make sure.


OK.


It just seemed over the top to make every single vehicle in the army flaming. The dreads don't have it, either, because adding a 4+CC First Strike is enough of a bump that I figured it would probably warrant a point jump.


I agree there are too many LDs. There was substantial demand for alternative daemon types, especially Horrors, as they were playtested in early versions of the Black Legion list (before we found out there would be no new minis and we had to work with the E40K chaos sprues). I had them in as "appendix models" but there was an argument that if they are not in the list, they won't ever be playtested. I'll be happy to cut it down to 2-3 LDs with some feedback on what works.


Maybe.


Agreed, but the list also needs to project the strategic advantages of the Thousand Sons. I toyed with some other deployment options but rather than making up special rules I decided that SR and the "gotcha" of teleport formations would have to suffice.


Seriously? 325 points is hardly a huge point investment. I have a hard time believing they will tank activation count to the extent they are not viable.


Yep. I wanted their "chaos-y" stuff to be limited to the characteristic elements of the Thousand Sons, like Silver Towers and the rank progression.


Fair point. I'm not sure what to do about it, though, aside from possibly bumping the AA (and maybe reducing the Heavy Flamer to something lighter to balance the increase). At 2x 5+AA, they would be as good as Hydras, with better firepower, armor, Fearless and assault abilities which would more than make up for the point difference. 1xAA4+, maybe?


I'll make them match however L&D has them designated.

By themselves, maybe not. In light of a list as upgrades to base 400+ point formations, I think it is. If I plan on taking a force for this army, I will look to activations. In light of this, the best bang-for-buck will be sought. That means your fliers, teleporters and the obligatory fellowships. After devising the attack and defence of the force, that leaves little room for the Disk Riders @ 325 points. There are just better options available in place of these. Their numbers and movement are boon, however they are a more viable option at a points drop for a formation of 6 or even 7 riders.


The issue is no so much the stats yet rather whether they will be taken at all. As an upgrade I believe the points will be rather spent towards an extra activation or other upgrades. I just do not see them being a viable choice in a list. If they were a seperate formation, they would act towards the activations of the force, and be a viable choice. Each to their own really, however it is the one unit in the force that I see as not being taken - not for its layout, but rather due to its role within such an expensive army. I guwess I am just on a mission to make every choice within a list a viable one and not the forgotten child

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Other thought: If you do go with the suggestion of removing the Dreadclaws, the Dreadnought then becomes quite a lesser choice for its points. In this case, would you consider a teleporting Drednought?!! That would be a neat idea for the list - all other things being considerred.

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Defiler and Deceiver: I've more or less made up my mind to modify the Deceiver - Dropping CC to CC5+ (with the extra CC FS attack, they will remain comparable to the Defiler's CC ability) and upgrading the AA to 2x AA5+ (less firepower than the Defiler to offset AA). I know that may be a net gain but I'm okay with testing it from there.

But that won't fix the attendant issues entirely.

The problem as I see it is that attaching them to infantry is a problem. They are too slow for a mobile formation and too fast to garrison. You can only attach one. The formations attached to, however, don't have ranged fire from the core units, so being a lone unit with ranged fire means they are easy to suppress. You can really only make them viable as a garrison by adding 1+ Dreadnoughts for more ranged shots/meat shields for the Defiler and that gets expensive fast. A minimum of +125 for any real chance of AA coverage just isn't worth it.

They might work okay attached to a Land Raider-based armor formation. The tower fire support only moves 20cm and it works okay so perhaps 20cm move armor will be a viable option. The formation would even be a bit cheaper than towers at 375 for 4LR + Deceiver - less firepower but lots tougher. I haven't tried this formation yet because I haven't played in the past few weeks since I've been thinking on it. Of course, that's still not likely to be a lot of Defilers running about simply due to raw expense.

I think they may have to become a dedicated formation if there's any hope at all of seeing them in play. They'd be support, of course.

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LDs - Cutting the daemonic beasts. I'm keeping the others for different roles - Flamers for high-FF, horrors for toughness/meatshield and Screamers for speed/CC. That may still be a bit of overkill but they each have an obvious niche - Rubric units with Flamers, Neophytes with Horrors, and Disc Riders with Screamers.

The TSons consorted with the deamonic tutelaries even before the fall so I'd like for them to have an element of daemonic servant in the list, at least have them be more prominent than in the other CSM lists. Maybe with strategic options players will be a bit more inclined to use daemons.

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Thoughts?

Can you change the Deciever's name to something that isn't the name of the notable unit in the Necron list?

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