Blame Forgeworld for the Daemon Engine Summoning. It's a rather silly formation of 3+ Defilers (any type...whatever that means)and/or Brass Scorpion.

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I'm okay with the concept of General and Elite support categories, but the trick will be in the actual implementation of what's allowable in what section.

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Here's the current draft stucture from the document Steve54 and I are working on.

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This looks very interesting. Perhabs i adopt the Core-Elite-Support structure for the Red Corsairs too.

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It certainly seems to solve a lot of problems with scaling to various point values... can anyone see any obvious problems with this approach?

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Well you can't build an all-Terminator force anymore    But thats ok because imho the generic Chaos Space Marine Retinue should form the backbone of every Chaos Space Marine force.

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Well, you can technically make the following list

Retinue - 275
Decimator - 225
Retinue - 275
Decimator - 225
Retinue - 275
Decimator - 225
Retinue - 275
Decimator - 225
Feral Titan - 275
Feral Titan - 275
Feral Titan - 275

Total 2285pts
Activations 11

7 War Engines (each as its own formation) and 4 CSM Infantry Retinues, with 175pts left over to spend however you like (probably making one retinue the BTS)... it's probably a over-powered list, ala the Feral/Decimator spam lists of the early playtesting, although not quite as bad.

I would suggest the (potentially? probably? not at all?) overpowered nature of list is due to points values of the two spammed War Engines being marginally too low, rather than a flaw in the structure. +25pts to each would make the list above top out at 3000pts, rather than 2825pts, meaning that realistically 6 War Engines will be your maximum for a Black Legion army list if you wanted to include minor things like a Supreme Commander and some AA guns! (dropping a Decimator would free up 250pts to add AA guns, a Supreme Commander, and again something to make one retinue the BTS).









Some questions and typos on the structure:


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Considered giving Defiler formations the Defilers upgrade?

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No fixed starting size for the Terminator and Raptor Cult formations, so as to finally kill off the variably-costing Lords issue? (and make army list writing easier)

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Chaos Land Raiders to get the 4+FF rating of the NetEA loyalist counterparts?
If not I'd suggest dropping to 65pts each.

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Cult Marines: Add or Replace?

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Havocs : Same issue.

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Deathwheels :
Does anyone take them in multiples in a single formation?
Do they not suffer from the same issues as Baneblades and Warhounds (singles better than multiples in a single formation, and so cost more points per model)

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Overall I'm broadly in favour of it, though I'd say some issues (such as the potential War Engine spam) will need ironing out.

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Is the main problem with decimator spam it being fearless?

I do use one quite often but it rarely makes its points back.

Time for a new thread probably.

Fearless, cheap, and punchy.
The three Feral Titans step in to compensate for the four Decimators' lack of speed, and to act as Engagement facilitators.

I wasn't around for the Feral/Decimator spam lists that resulted in the 0-2 limit being imposed on Decimator formations, but like with the (originally 250pt) old AMTL Warhound spam lists I believe once you achieve a critical mass of Fearless War Engines a tipping point is found and the list shifts over into being too powerful.

4 Decimators and 3 Ferals (+4 Retinues) is probably on the edge (or over the edge) of that tipping point, and would be the first place I'd look to test the proposed structure.

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I can't see that list being that effective IMO - its too one dimensional and lacks too many elements - speed, AA, scouts, AT

I will test it this thursday though.

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To test effectiveness, I'd recommend dropping one Decimator and adding in a few other bells-and-whistles to cover the obvious lack of anti-air, etc.

It's not always the "extreme" list that's the problem, but the "exploitive" list that's close to it that is the issue.

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We should have time for 2 games (and hopefully batreps) so 1 with E&Cs list 1 with a 6 WE+extras list

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Yah, sorry.  


AFAIK the Decimator/Feral spam lists of the past were just as one-dimentional... though as they didn't have to take Retinues as Core formations, they were freed up to take Terminators there instead, making the package as a whole more powerful.

Still, it's an area I'd look at testing as a concern... if it proves a paper tiger then I'd say the next step is to ensure that the new structure hasn't made more typical lists too neutered in power!

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Liking the list structure guys!

I must say that it'll be interesting to see how the Decimator Spam list gets on as well, I think the lack of Terminators might make a difference, but I guess we'll see .

I still think the armoured company is over pointed for what it does, I can't see a good reason to take one personally.