Stalkers are in. Check the newest playtest list here:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 82;t=17617

I think that the main problem that people have with the Obliterators is their ability to do everything combined with their necessity. If chaos had another AA source, you wouldn't necessarily have to take them, and it would also then justify scaling back their effectiveness.

LoW, you are partly correct, but there is more to this debate. Ground AA for every other race is moderately weak in that it can either be targetted or suppressed relatively easily. This is not true for Obliterators because they are classed as infantry, and are taken as upgrades to infantry formations. At best you can usually only get a single hit allocated to the unit, which has a 75% chance of survival because it has 4+RA.

If Neal is correct that adding AA to the Oblits was a last minute patch, that is even more reason to remove it entirely together with a points drop to 75.

On the Stalker, 4x AA6+ may be a bit OTT but at least it can be shot or supressed, so that gets my vote. However, the list will need to be revised to indicate which formations may actually take the stalker upgrade

However, I would still suggest giving the Defiler's Reaper cannon at least AA5+ as well. It also raises the question whether the Defiler can be carried in Dreadclaws when it is an upgrade . . . .

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I'm more in favor of the AA-Defiler variant ... Stalker could still be a good name (Spider Robot, rather Stalkerish). But thats just me and aesthetics.

Armoured Co+Retinues can take Stalkers as indicated when the typo was highlighted.

These arguments have been repeated again and again over several years - all I'm really interested in now is playtesting not rehashing arguments.

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Well, it seems the typo still exists in the list here unless there is a later version somewhere, so I presume you are referring to some comment that has yet to be added. Fair enough.

On rehashing arguments, isn't that what this thread is all about? For example, by allowing the 'AA' Defiler to be carried in Dreadclaws, you open up the same possibility of providing some form of ground AA cover that seems to be an implied requirement. Equally if it is felt that removing AA from the Oblits makes them too similar to Terminators, why not give the Oblits FF (EA+1) to reflect all that firepower?

If the concern is around upgrade slots, combine Obliterators with Defilers as one type of upgrade. They have sufficiently similar functions to permit this, and at a pinch you could also add the Stalker. Call the upgrade "Heavy weapons" or some such.

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I'm agreeable to Oblits receiving an extra attack FF in exchange for the loss of AA and inv save.  2x 2+FF attacks is pretty damned handy and makes the oblits worth taking.

I think the Stalker is a good addition and should be included in armoured company fms which may actually encourage some none WE vehicles in BL lists and start producing some more balanced armies.

Oblits losing AA would be the only real change I'd make to the Black Legion list.

It's just too resilient (4+ RA Inf with 6+ compared to a 5+ tank for IG, SM, Eldar), far too swiss army knife and far too easily embedded in an infantry formation.

If I want to take AA (as a Marine and IG player) it's fragile, it sticks out like a sore thumb in an infantry formation (which being able to garrison forward is where you want it) and it's pretty much only there for AA purposes.

Especially with Marines if I want Hunters I generally need to put them in a formation with lots of other vehicles- an incentive Chaos players really need, since they skip from infantry to war engines ignoring AV.

Since we're throwing names out, I talked to Einstein and he agreed.

The Stalker, it's tricky- I understand the need for a Hydra/Hunter/Firestorm equivalent, especially if Oblits lost AA, but I can see the argument to say that's boring and makes Chaos ever closer to a mirror of Space Marines.

In the thread (NetEA)Black legion and LatD (pinned at the top) which contains the link to the latest list various typos have been highlighted - the first of which is where stalkers can go. This has been replied to that it should be Retinues and Armoured Co.

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As for rehashing arguments this thread, along with the others covering various issues, was put up as final clear up of views concerning the issues. As a result of these discussions and the previous years of similar discussion the latest revision of the list was produced.At this stage I think every argument and counter-argument has been heard - and has gone into consideration when revising the list, so we really need testing of the list now.

For the stalker I put up a poll to try and gauge views. At the time of the list being written the oblit camp had a 5-6 vote lead. I decided that with the split in views, even at that point, being pretty close then we would combine both options and upset everybody . If, based upon playtesting, the obliterator proves to be too good an AA option still or the stalker has problems as a unit then we will look at the AA issue again.

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Just collating them at the moment

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Just for note:
The no-AA Obliterators which was proposed for Playtesting by the former army-champion HAD +1EA for FF.
This is the version which is currently in the Red Corsairs army list (minus the Invulnerable Save)

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Chaos players voted to keep the omni-Oblit...I'm a cynic but that was predictable.

Since Obliterators can grow weapons "as needed", is there a flavour-reason against them growing AA weapons?

Perhaps a reduction in range to 30cm for their weapons might be the answer?

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