I'm in complete understanding of the point. I would suggest that you are not.

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

So you're saying that I don't understand the point I was making? Thats an odd statement to make.

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Don't be deliberatly obtuse - I meant that you didn't seem to understand the counter argument I had put

Strangely in a later post you admit BL are unusually unsuited to screening AA vehicles

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

In my experience the most annoying thing about Obliterators is their ability to hang out next to my Russes and chat up the drivers since they just won't die.

And then drop a BM on my Aircraft as they try to leave off my own table edge.

Now if I could kill them with a unit close to their points value without treating them like a Titan it would be nice.

And in the fluff Oblits form existing weapons out of their bodies, how is it they manage to turn an arm that can normally be a 2 single lascannons into 2 twin autocannons since its AA is identical to a Hydra?

And if it can do that, why doesn't it just use those autocannons to kill all targets since they'd be better?

In every other army the AA belongs to some big, hulking vehicle, not a mansized blasphemy of flesh.

As to an AA vehicle I think the Black Legion should adopt the Marine 'with transport' rule for a slight cost break, ie Retinue is 1 Lord, 8 Chaos Marines + transport for 300 points. Or something similar, I've never seen Rhinos be more useful than Dreadclaws, why do they cost more?

_________________
Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

how is it they manage to turn an arm that can normally be a 2 single lascannons into 2 twin autocannons since its AA is identical to a Hydra?

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

They cost the same, as you need 8 Dreadclaws or 4 rhinos to transport the formation (40 points).

Having the mobility of the Rhinos is a boon from my limited experience against them. Matt played two retinue's with his Black Legion, one without Rhino's and one with.  The retinue with Rhinos had a lot more flexibility thanks to its mobility where as the one without them pretty much just sat around sustaining and being shot at.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I encourage to read this thread about my view of Obliterators.
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 82;t=12721

and to re-thought my proposed stats for Obliterators. Here are the updated stats i would like them to have:

Obliterators
Type, Armour, CC, FF
Infantry, 4+, 4+, 2+

Weapon, Range, Firepower, Notes
Body Weapons, 30cm, AP4+/AT4+, -
Power Weapons, (base contact), Assault Weapons, Macro Weapon

Notes: Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Teleport

You will see that only the base CC-attack is Macro Weapon. They don't have an Extra Attack because in Wh40k they are a maximum of 3 Obliterators per unit wheras Chaos Terminators can be the full 5 models which is the most common number of individual models on an infantry base (wehich comes naturally because the base has 5 holes).

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

I can live with those stats. Some form of ground AA should be created though.

I'd like to avoid giving them a "power weapon" profile that didn't have the extra attack. If we were going to give them power weapons, a 4+ or 5+ CC value with a normal power weapon (MW,EA+1) would be fine. Chosen are CC3+ after all.

In every other army the AA belongs to some big, hulking vehicle, not a mansized blasphemy of flesh.

That'd be 3 twin Autocannons, as they have 3x shots as compared to the Hydra's 2x shots.

_________________
Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

Lets not change too much at once. Change one or maybe two things at a time so you have a controlled test environment.

If LI is going to add a Chaos AA vehicle and Defiler option then I think the best thing to do is test those and then test the Obliterators without their AA value at their current price.

Once we have some test games with that then we can start to look at other options if we need to.

Too many changes at once just creates a situation where you don't know what factors are responsible for the new effect of the unit.

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Well in that instance, I'd say no they aren't worth the points. But one should not flaunt their Rhinos about in front of your 650 Points of Horrible Shooting Death formation.

@LI - I was just pointing out that the idea has come up before and seemed good then as well. Name it whatever you want, if it shoots down aircraft people will take it.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

Why not whirlwinds.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Bah, lost my post. In brief then:

The whirlwind STC wasn't discovered until after the heresy, and the hunter wasn't until after that. Whatever we're dealing with here is the precursor to the whirlwind.

I personally think that removing AA from oblits is such a major change in role that reworking the unit entirely isn't going to be much more work. That said, I'm not too unhappy with the unit as-is minus the AA. The only thing conspicuously lacking from the unit is the obliterators' power fists, but of course adding more MW is going to be contentious.

In general, I usually go for the approach of erring on the side of overcosting units, that way the units aren't going to be overpowered, and can always be reduced in cost later.