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Summoning

Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:40 pm

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I'm sorry, Biggles, but what do you base this on? They are about the same cost as a chaos marine about as durable, have no ranged fire but better assault. What's overpowered about that? I've seen not a single tournament list that uses more than ~10 daemons, total. Most have considerably less.

The main way that Daemons *could* potentially be overpowered is by being the same way as older versions of the Necron list, able to pop onto the table, win a combat, go back into reserve, then bounce into a combat on the other side of the table the following turn, with no rallying roll required to do so, and no penalty.

IE: by acting as a too-cheap force multiplier which can appear wherever they're best needed, every turn of the game, with no penalties for doing so.

Many (Most?) Chaos lists don't seem to use Daemonic Focus, to take advantage of this phenomena.

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Ginger

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:30 pm

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I'm sorry, Biggles, but what do you base this on? ?They are about the same cost as a chaos marine about as durable, have no ranged fire but better assault. ?What's overpowered about that? ?I've seen not a single tournament list that uses more than ~10 daemons, total. ?Most have considerably less.

They may be comparable to Chaos marines, but far cheaper than normal SMs, even allowing for the intrinsic cost of the Rhinos! Equally ?Eldar Guardians at around 15-18 each are much weaker for comparable costs, while Aspects are about the same stats and around 37.5 points each. And then they all get Invulnerable save on top of not inflicting BMs if they die. And all for 20 points!! Consequently I agreed with your comment that there should be at least a modest increase to around 30-35 points

[quote="Evil and Chaos,Mar. 04 2008,15:40"] The main way that Daemons *could* potentially be overpowered is by being the same way as older versions of the Necron list, able to pop onto the table, win a combat, go back into reserve, then bounce into a combat on the other side of the table the following turn, with no rallying roll required to do so, and no penalty.

IE: by acting as a too-cheap force multiplier which can appear wherever they're best needed, every turn of the game, with no penalties for doing so.

Many (Most?) Chaos lists don't seem to use Daemonic Focus, to take advantage of this phenomena.
As E&C points out, the summoning / dismissal mechanic also provides a sort of "teleport" mechanic allowing them to be redeployed to different formations as necessary. To be fair, this is offset to some extent by the dice and formation slots available etc, but it is a significant force multiplier that acts in several ways to boost the parent formation.

Finally, the use of mono-faction armies to ensure 1+ initiatives with a 4+ strategy means that the BL army is very responsive and likely to be able to time the activation / summoning much better.

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Irondeath

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:37 pm

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(Ginger @ Mar. 04 2008,17:30)

QUOTE

As Neal pointed out on page 1 the LDs effective cost is ~30. How a 50-75% increase can be termed "modest" escapes me.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:44 pm

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Finally, the use of mono-faction armies to ensure 1+ initiatives with a 4+ strategy means that the BL army is very responsive and likely to be able to time the activation / summoning much better.

Don't forget that they have a free supreme commander, so once they gain the initiative, they're unlikely to lose it without some pretty poor luck.

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Ginger

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:21 pm

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(Irondeath @ Mar. 04 2008,16:37)

QUOTE

(Ginger @ Mar. 04 2008,17:30)

QUOTE

As Neal pointed out on page 1 the LDs effective cost is ~30. How a 50-75% increase can be termed "modest" escapes me.

I believe Neal is basing his cost on three formations each with a pact or champion, and 10 daemons (which seems to be the norm). total cost 300 points for 10 daemons or ~30 each. I was suggesting a possible increase of ~5 to ~10 ?points to raise this to ~35 points each bringing them in line with Eldar Aspects etc.

However, as I was also trying to point out, I believe there are other elements that combine to make the whole army more effective. Individually they are all small points, like the slightly overpowered (IMHO) daemons, but combined together they start to make the whole list a bit overpowered.

Finally I am horribly biased - you must also take my appauling strategic abilities ?and dice throwing into acount here as I have only had one win against them using various "traditional" armies.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:23 pm

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And all for 20 points!! Consequently I agreed with your comment that there should be at least a modest increase to around 30-35 points

That's not what I said at all. LD's are definitely not "all for 20 points." You're not counting the cost of summoning kit. The minimum they cost is ~25 points. The effective cost is already ~30 points most of the time.

If you want to compare them to Aspect Warriors, then you should do a full comparison instead of just listing the daemons' advantages. The stat lines are comparable. Aspect Warriors don't die instantly when they break. Daemons don't get to Hit and Run. Aspect Warriors can capture objectives, daemons only if you pay extra. Aspect Warriors don't disappear when a character is sniped. Aspect Warriors can be transported and perform air assaults.

Even stacked against the BMs and Invulnerable save, that looks an awful lot like the Aspect Warriors come out ahead to me.

But the main point is... if they are overpowered, where are the army lists which abuse them? Where are the games where daemons "teleporting" around the board have caused odd results? Where is the tournament that was won by reliance on daemons? Why, after almost 3 years of play, have no min-max artists come up with lists which take advantage of the supposed inequity?

I agree it looks like they might be a problem in theory, but there is no evidence that they are in actual play.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:29 pm

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Where is the tournament that was won by reliance on daemons?

The only regular feature of the tournament lists I've seen as regards daemons is a lack of daemonic focus, so as to take advantage of the 'teleport effect'.

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Irondeath

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:54 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 04 2008,18:29)

QUOTE

Where is the tournament that was won by reliance on daemons?

The only regular feature of the tournament lists I've seen as regards daemons is a lack of daemonic focus, so as to take advantage of the 'teleport effect'.

Could you link or otherwise provide those lists? As I wrote before, I had little luck finding BL army lists.

Also, how can you tell that those lists were built to take advantage of the summoning rules rather than the player lacking the models, upgrade slots or points to put in Icon Bearers?

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Kleomenes

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:02 pm

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Personally one reason I would not use a focus is simply because demons cant ride around in Rhinos and I like to mechanise my retinues (usually).

I would certainly consider using a focus for meatshield duties for a foot garrison

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Ginger

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:06 pm

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Sorry Neal, Our posts crossed - as you can see I have taken your points into account, but not explained them well. ?my bad :blush:

As to the years of play-testing, you have already alluded to earlier attempts at summoning that were rejected etc. I am merely commenting on the recent (6-9 months) of tounament and friendly play here in the UK where Chaos lists have started to make an appearance in my (admitidly limited) experience. I have also gone to some length to point out that IMHO this is one aspect that is only slightly overpowered - but combined with other elements this tends to slightly unbalance the list as a whole IMHO. As to Min max artists, I agree that the clever use of limited upgrade slots and D(3) rather than D(6) has limited the effects, but not entirely removed them.

Lastly, I have suggested a way that a compromise (and more colour) could be provided allowing the Daemons to remain on the battlefield under certain circumstances (as the "belief" in the particular God of Chaos increases). This would IMO actually help reduce their imbalance slightly as it would fix the daemons to a part of the table while obviously draining the potential for such 'underhand' / *Eldar* tactics

Finally as to army lists, the recent UK Full Scale Assault was won by Chaos, with the other two Chaos armies in the top 5 out of 18 participants (well 16 if you exclude me on the account of my dice and Matt 'cos he fielded a deliberately uncompetitive IG army - 4x Leman Russ companies

)

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Irondeath

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:04 pm

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(Ginger @ Mar. 04 2008,19:06)

QUOTE

Lastly, I have suggested a way that a compromise (and more colour) could be provided allowing the Daemons to remain on the battlefield under certain circumstances (as the "belief" in the particular God of Chaos increases). This would IMO actually help reduce their imbalance slightly as it would fix the daemons to a part of the table while obviously draining the potential for such 'underhand' / *Eldar* tactics

You are referring to your post on p.2?

How about keeping them in relatively close proximity to the thing that summoned them - the Icon bearer / Prince / Lord etc? In this they could then use mechanisms similar to 'Nids and Eldar Warp gates ?making the whole process simpler.

Perhaps GDs could both summon and retain LDs in their own right, and even (on radically thin ice here) have the ability to split off into their own formation on reaching a given summoning points mass

IMO any mechanism that allows daemon to be summoned into their own formations is just begging to be exploited via popcorn activations and token assaults with the summoning formation in support. I can see no way to make this work in any balanced fashion.

(Ginger @ Mar. 04 2008,19:06)

QUOTE

)

From what I could glean form the pics and reports, the winning LatD army was something like 4 motorised coven, 4 Slaanesh titans and about a dozen LDs.

Definitely a powerful package, it?s fast, has solid TK and could shift LDs where needed. It also lacks AA, has few activations and is probably quite vulnerable to artillery and long-range AT fire killing the transports early. Were they Land Transporters or Chimeras? And I can?t blame the player for not including Daemonic Foci (if he did) as no LD can truly keep up with motorised troops...

The BL armies at Full Scale Assault are described as "WE-heavy", Ferals and Decimators I presume? Since both you and E&C were there, could you describe them in a little more detail? I?m also of the impression that neither of the BL armies had any daemons, correct?

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:12 pm

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The BL armies at Full Scale Assault are described as "WE-heavy", Ferals and Decimators I presume? Since both you and E&C were there, could you describe them in a little more detail? I?m also of the impression that neither of the BL armies had any daemons, correct?

I played my IG against a chap called Nathan who had a BL army.

I lost 4-0 on turn three.

He had two ferals, two death wheels, at least one minimum-sized terminator formation with one attached obliterator, and ~10 lesser daemons. He also had a big foot slogging formation with two obliterators.

He used no aircraft, decimators or defilers.

I forget what else he had... he was undoubtedly a very good player.

Overall, he placed third on the day, whilst I placed sixth.

The only thing I remember about the second BL army was it had three Feral Titans, and it placed fifth.

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Irondeath

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:17 pm

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Thanks for the quick reply.

4-0 after 3 turns is quite something ... I assume the game went straight down the drain for you and your opponent wasnt?t even forced to pull any tricks like shifting LDs as he had you running early? Any info on the other BL list?

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dptdexys

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:16 pm

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From what I could glean form the pics and reports, the winning LatD army was something like 4 motorised coven, 4 Slaanesh titans and about a dozen LDs.

The L+D army at Full Scale Assault was,

5 covens (4 mechanised nearly all were LTs ) all had hydras (5 in all,so no lack of AA coverage) but only 3 covens had pacts.All were Slaanesh.
2 Questors,2 Subjucators and a Rough Rider Sq.
9 lesser daemons.

And I can?t blame the player for not including Daemonic Foci (if he did) as no LD can truly keep up with motorised troops...

That's the exact reason I didn't have demonic focus in the list.

As far as I can remember in the first game the LDs were only summoned once ,the second game twice(probably only 6 or 7 LDs were summoned in both games) but around four times (maybe more) in the third game(never had them all on at once though and always had at least 3 or 4 left ,helped in the third game by a couple of 6s adding another 3 LDs to the pool).

The LDs hardly had an effect in the first 2 games and the 255 points would have been better spent elsewhere.The 3rd game they were more effective but mainly because My opponent misjudged assault distances a couple of times (mainly Demonic beasts infiltrator move meaning I could pin troops in vehicles).

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dptdexys

Post subject: Summoning

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:33 pm

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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
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Location: South Yorkshire

It doesn't seem too long ago most were concerned that demons were hardly being used and were not worth taking for their points(better spent elsewhere).

Now they are being used theres a few concerns about their effectiveness. I've found that most perceived problems are from gamers facing them for the first few times.They are usually caught out and the summoning does seem overpowered at first but not so much when gamers have a bit of experience against them.

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