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Hell Blade and Talon
rpr
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:19 pm 
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Soren here is right, these stats expect the +1 to-hit bonus on Intercept and CAP, thus making it effectually 5+ in almost all situations.
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Tooninki
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:00 pm 
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Cap gives you +1 to hit?
I'm epic noob so please forgive me for asking stupid things...
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:05 pm 
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You will note that the AA to-hit value is identical to the AT to-hit value if you look at the Aircraft and AA units given in the Epic Rulebook.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:11 pm 
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(Tooninki @ Jan. 24 2008,15:00)
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Cap gives you +1 to hit?
I'm epic noob so please forgive me for asking stupid things...

That's one of the more accepted proposed changes in the "Updated Net Rulebook"; not set in stone, but a lot of people play with that rule, and it's "Intercept" which gives the +1 to AA rolls, the CAP bonus is a sub-set of that.

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Kleomenes
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:01 pm 
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I played a game last sunday with hellblades at 200 points for 3, sv -, 2x30cm AP 4+, AT 6+, AA 6+. They didnt get shot at so the save was a non-issue, and there were no aircraft to intercept.

Failing activation once, they only made a couple of meaningful ground attacks on infantry targets, where they could do adequately. I didnt feel 200 points was underpointed, or particularly overpointed, given that their main role was negated by lack of enemy airpower!

Used the expermental stats for Hell Talons as well (200 for 2, 45cm AT/AA 4+, 45cm AP4+, 15cm 1 bp ignore cover). I was more pleased with these than when I have used them before, they looked more like worth their points after a surviving aircraft made a bombing run on some Mech Inf. Against the right targets they can be nasty.

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Kleomenes
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:55 pm 
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I used the Hell Talons again today, with the above stats. Again, I was happy with what they did and I wasnt too worried that they were overpowered.

I am a little worried about the extreme range on the Lascannon and Havoc Launcher though. Its easy to avoid ground flak. Is this a feature or something to worry about?

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:09 pm 
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(Kleomenes @ Jan. 27 2008,08:55)
QUOTE
I am a little worried about the extreme range on the Lascannon and Havoc Launcher though. Its easy to avoid ground flak. Is this a feature or something to worry about?


Quite the bone of contention actually. There are some (TRC for instance) that argue that the range should be reduced to deal with the flak issue you mention.

My POV is that the weapon (the lascannon in this instance)  has firmly established stats that give it a 45cm range and that not keeping the range at 45cm is an artificial hack.

No real way around the issue to be honest. I'd be in favour of raising the point cost of the Hell Talon to take the added range into account but the problem isn't with the unit or the lascannon, it is with the woefully low AA ranges of flak units.

People playing against Hell talons just need to take that into account when placing their flak support.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:15 pm 
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Is flak range really that an issue? After all most flak shoots 30cm range, the Hydra 45cm and the Hunter even 60cm.

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Kleomenes
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:32 pm 
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Well the problem is that you can 'snipe' around the edges of the flak umbrella if you plan your approach move in the right way. With 45cm lascannons you can even hit a formation that has a hydra in it on the other side of the formation and not be hit by the hydra till the disengage move (If you are feeling bold, or chaos!). Its very easy to avoid flak all together with regards to formations at the edges of the flak umbrella.

I had a game with emperors shadow today and he had a battery of basilisks on the far flank. They were not far from a hydra, but I was able to make an attack run at them with minimal fuss, just using the lascannons (which are most of the AT firepower that hell talons have anyway). I have to say it felt a little easy.

That said, I suppose its not like the flak is doing nothing - it restricts your targets and restricts your disengage moves. I don't suppose its game breaking, its not like Hell Talons come in flights of 6!

Personally though, I would have no problem with airpower having different weapon stats, they already break so many core rules (blast markers, movement, being off table most of the time, immune to all non-flak firepower and assaults, etc) that having 15cm shaved off all their weapon stats would not offend my sense of logic.

The alternative is to add 15cm to all existing flak units? Do we also then improve/revise the thunderbolt/marauder/fighta bomber stats to give them greater range to compete as well?

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:40 am 
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(Hena @ Jan. 27 2008,11:10)
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I very much don't like to see fighters or fighter-bombers with 45cm AA range. Intercept and CAP is so nasty from those then.

Whether we want to or not isn't really the issue.

The Lascannon has an established 45cm range.

If the price of the unit takes that into account then its up to the player to adjust their tactics to also take that into account.

People shouldn't be able to relay on a cookie cutter solution to their tactics and gameplay.

If you know you are playing against Hell Talons then you need to adjust.

Its part of the game.

And frankly you can move around flak with almost any weapon load. Its just easier if you have a 45cm weapon and your opponent has no flak that can engage.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:30 am 
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PG, While the lascannon may have an established ground range, isn't there a unit design principle to reduce these ranges when the weapon is fitted to aircraft, precisely to avoid the impact being mentioned? I seem to recall both TRC and Neal mentioning this, eg here

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:44 am 
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This would work if the Marauders Twin Lascannons hadn't a range of 45cm.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:31 am 
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(Ginger @ Jan. 27 2008,17:30)
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PG, While the lascannon may have an established ground range, isn't there a unit design principle to reduce these ranges when the weapon is fitted to aircraft, precisely to avoid the impact being mentioned?

There is a move now to do this but to my mind it is simply making the situation worse.

Flak is screwed up and screwing with weapon stats means that you incrementally make it more and more difficult to fix.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:33 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Jan. 27 2008,18:44)
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This would work if the Marauders Twin Lascannons hadn't a range of 45cm.

It wouldn't be an issue if flak ranges didn't get missed in initial testing.

How this happened escapes me but there is no reason for some of the AA weapons in the game to have such pathetic ranges.

As I have mentioned before though, if the point cost takes this "sniping" into account then I don't see how it is a problem.

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