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The new Blood Rage....

 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:55 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 14 Jul. 2009, 11:39 )

Quote: (Dobbsy @ 14 Jul. 2009, 02:36 )

I might like it, unfortunately I'm not keen on having them different to the BL Juggernauts.

In what other list do juggers feature?

Neither the Black Legion nor the Lost and the Damned list use/allow Juggernauts; they're in the "collector's models" section so I think you've got free reign to tweak/alter them.

The "Daemon World Horde" list uses them, but they'll be "Bloodcrushers" in that list.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:08 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 14 Jul. 2009, 12:55 )

Neither the Black Legion nor the Lost and the Damned list use/allow Juggernauts; they're in the "collector's models" section so I think you've got free reign to tweak/alter them.

The "Daemon World Horde" list uses them, but they'll be "Bloodcrushers" in that list.

Then I would greatly welcome some feedback on this thread - Project Juggernaut

Thanks in advance

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:06 pm 
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Tournament friendly does not mean that the list needs to be balanced

Then this is where you and I differ in our views.

I feel you are going totally against the fluff by trying to give the World Eaters an answer to everything that they may come up against.
Hardly.

Exactly how many sources beyond the White Dwarf article and the newly aquired Lexicanum have you referred to Dobbsy? I would like to know as I have offerd you everything I have and you appear to ignore me. This is one thing that really frustrates me to no end
How many sources do I need to be quoting from? How long a history do you want me to write?
As I mentioned, it's a brief history. It's not war in peace. It's not meant to be and it won't be.

No need to be like that dude. Happy to help out but you have to want the help rather than ignore and pick and chose what you want. As I see it, the only replies you are getting are from 3-5 people and you appear to ignore some of the important ideas along the way. How many of these people have actually played with the list? I have for one
Sorry mate, I think you misunderstood my post. I'm not trying to "be like that" at all. I seriously think that if you are unhappy with my list then you may be happier making your own, because what I want to do with the list you don't like and I don't think you'll ever be happy with my design of the list.

And I'm not ignoring anything. Just because I don't immediately respond/agree to what you put forward doesn't mean I'm not taking it in. I think you might be riding this list too hard and seem to want it to be finished overnight.

I know it may be hard to be a champion for such a list, but it needs to be in the hands of people that have a passion for the list and will actually play test it to understand the changes he/she is making and not rely alone on the reports of games from others
That's a little unfair actually. Why else would I be writing this list? Also, anyone keen enough to play the list and build an army for it, I see as passionate. Who else will play it? I know this is not true, but your statement seems to say that you don't respect anyone else's opinion about this list because they may not play it as regularly.

So what am I left with, but to try and produce a modified list to gain feedback and possibly acceptance.
How about having a bit of patience...?

You have not made it easy IMO, that's all
That's because you seem to be holding the reins too tightly. You seem to want it finished so badly and want it to be match your perfect vison. As I've said it may never be that and you may be disappointed.


You still have my suppoort, as at the end of the day, I do want a list out there for everyone to enjoy. I would just like it to be true to the fluff, that is always my goal, and probably the biggest gripe I have with lists - and what get's me into trouble I guess.
No worries. You just have to remember I'm not going to write a massive amount of fluff for the list. If you love the fluff that's great, but I think sticking with the sources you have and knowing the full story should be how you enjoy it. Don't rely on the first page of this list to hold everything you know about the World Eaters.

Note: The things I do like is the addition of the Legionaires and the combined formations of termies and normal trooppers. These were awesome additions IMO. See, I am positive as well as being constructive.
Thanks. I'm positive this won't be the last change I make either. Some you may like others maybe not.





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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:26 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 14 Jul. 2009, 14:06 )

How many sources do I need to be quoting from? How long a history do you want me to write?
As I mentioned, it's a brief history. It's not war in peace. It's not meant to be and it won't be.

It is not that dude

It is the inclusion of units that you have added to keep people who 'may' play the list happy with alot of options. These options go against the fluff of the army.

Go back to the Word Eater 1.0 discussions and you will see talk from others including LI talking about the World Eaters. I just feel that the current list has too many options - that is a rare thing mind you - usually there is a cry to add units.

As for warriors that can no longer fight, it is an honour to be placed in a dreadnaught to serve the cause. Other than this, they are a warrior culture. If you cannot walk or hold up an axe, the Legion will not wait for you or carry you IMO. Any honourable warrior who holds battle prowess above all else, would rather fall on his own axe rather than hang around as a cripple. As stated, the dreadnought is the exception to this, and are only given to great heroes, or those that the Bloodlord feels he wished to torment I guess.

The material I had for you was to assist you with the background to help make the list in line with the battle theory of this Legion, not to write up a full history.

Like I said, I like the Legionaires who would be out to prove themselves. It is quite concevable that they would also fly the aircraft as well, but IMO World Eaters would either have bombers, or fighter bombers. What you have given is a navy to appease any newcomer with options beyond what they should have to close up a weakness. The same can be said for the Stalker.

That's all of it in one post I guess.




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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:06 pm 
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It is the inclusion of units that you have added to keep people who 'may' play the list happy with alot of options. These options go against the fluff of the army.

Actually I didn't include them to appease anyone. I included them because to me the vision of a "warband" means a whole bunch of different units. But fine seriously if you're that against them I'll remove them.

Go back to the Word Eater 1.0 discussions and you will see talk from others including LI talking about the World Eaters. I just feel that the current list has too many options - that is a rare thing mind you - usually there is a cry to add units.
Yet you yelled for the Daemon engines to stay when I was trying to streamline the list with the scorpion and slaughterer (which would be just as good as daemon engines directly)just because you had the miniatures - which you could easily have said "counts as". But I listened to you.

As for warriors that can no longer fight, it is an honour to be placed in a dreadnaught to serve the cause. Other than this, they are a warrior culture. If you cannot walk or hold up an axe, the Legion will not wait for you or carry you IMO. Any honourable warrior who holds battle prowess above all else, would rather fall on his own axe rather than hang around as a cripple. As stated, the dreadnought is the exception to this, and are only given to great heroes, or those that the Bloodlord feels he wished to torment I guess.
The thing iwrote about the stalker driver was a little tongue in cheek BTW. Servitors/thralls/vassals/slaves etc drive the vehicles. Even the WEs would have them.

The material I had for you was to assist you with the background to help make the list in line with the battle theory of this Legion, not to write up a full history.
And that's fine but I'm not sure even with that fluff that you would be happy with a decision I might make that goes against how you see it.

What you have given is a navy to appease any newcomer with options beyond what they should have to close up a weakness. The same can be said for the Stalker.
See my above post.

Who can tell what a WE lord would band together? Do you know for a FACT that no World Eater war lord would not use bombers? Being rag-tag means just that to me - they'd use what they could scrape together or loot. Sure, there's probably something somewhere in your fluff that refutes this but can you say with certainty that EVERY war lord out there NEVER used bombers? My point is your vision isn't everyone else's vision. The units were there for the rag tag feeling not appeasement. But fine I'll remove the bombers as well.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:09 pm 
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Don't remove the bombers please. :)

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:05 pm 
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Allow me to make my standard call that appealing to "fit the background" is useless unless you can provide quotes that show that your opinion is the one that fits.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:29 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 14 Jul. 2009, 11:25 )

Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 14 Jul. 2009, 11:23 )

I don't disagree with the rule, we just clearly have different ideas as to how good it is!

We may have to take this to vassal and fight it out  

:tongue:

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:03 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 14 Jul. 2009, 00:58 )

I believe the 'Destroyer' is this list's name for a Khorne-blessed Defiler ; what with the proliferation of Khorne Daemon Engines I'm not convinced that a Khornate Defiler variant is nessesary... just have the normal Defiler in there?

A Khorne Defiler is called a Slaughterfiend. Its "just" a Defiler with two CC army instead of the Reaper Autocannon and the HavocLauncher/TwinHeavyFlamer and some nice transport ability for Berzerkers.

The Blood Slaughterer isn't just a Deamonworld force. It will featureinthe Servants of Slaughter Khorne Renegade Militia armylist featured on Imperial Armour 7.

Bloodcrushers are Bloodletters riding Juggernauts.
It's a bit different than Khorne Berzerker Champions riding Juggernauts.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:47 pm 
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The problem is that there is no one 'version' of a chaos warband and the background is ambigious enough that the 'gaps' need to be filled with personal interpretation - this is both a blessing and a curse of the GW background, depending on how you approach it.


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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:28 pm 
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I guess I have had as much impact up to this point that I am going to have and I will be happy with what has developed. I have said my piece on this so that is where I will leave it in respects to fluff.

The next thing that I would like to talk about is the original reason for this thread. Upon discussing the currently accepted blood rage rule with others, we noticed that it is a rule that forces a move action. Does this not go against the style of epic not to force a move?

Epic appears to be a game where you are not forced to do anything in regards to must move here or there. The Blood Rage current rule seems to contradict this. Am I incorrect in this regard?

My preference for the Blood Rage rule after all the discussions is for any failed activation of a 1, gain a BM and then either charge or shoot and have it effect the whole army. That means doing away with the unit beserk skill as well.

Is this even open for discussion at this point?




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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:35 pm 
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Don't remove the bombers please


So on the one hand I have a player wanting to remove the bombers and another wanting to keep them! Talk about damned if I do, damned if I don't.

I think I'll leave it to E&C and Frogbear to fight this out. I don't think my fragile little mind can take it.  :laugh:

Argue away gentlemen!

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:49 pm 
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My preference for the Blood Rage rule after all the discussions is for any failed activation of a 1, gain a BM and then either charge or shoot and have it effect the whole army. That means doing away with the unit beserk skill as well.

Is this even open for discussion at this point?


So you won't even give me a couple of playtests with it??? Please prove me wrong. That's all I'm asking. Why will you not even try? How can you say it won't work if you don't try it?

Seriously, there's a reason army lists never get finished properly. Not even bothering to try something new is one of them.

At this point I'm foreseeing that with no cooperation this list will never be anything more than a fan list - unable to be used in tournaments. That is just a sad predicament.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:03 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 14 Jul. 2009, 23:35 )

So on the one hand I have a player wanting to remove the bombers and another wanting to keep them! Talk about damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Dude

I have not said to remove the bomber.. As above I stated that it is feasible that they would have either a bomber or fighter bomber. The exclusion of the fighter is what is implied.

Is my ENGLAND bad or something that this was not clear in the above?

There is nothing for E&C and I to fight (?) over


Edit: Agree with E&C on the next page.




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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:06 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 14 Jul. 2009, 23:49 )

My preference for the Blood Rage rule after all the discussions is for any failed activation of a 1, gain a BM and then either charge or shoot and have it effect the whole army. That means doing away with the unit beserk skill as well.

Is this even open for discussion at this point?


So you won't even give me a couple of playtests with it??? Please prove me wrong. That's all I'm asking. Why will you not even try? How can you say it won't work if you don't try it?

Seriously, there's a reason army lists never get finished properly. Not even bothering to try something new is one of them.

At this point I'm foreseeing that with no cooperation this list will never be anything more than a fan list - unable to be used in tournaments. That is just a sad predicament.

Once again dude, read the post.

Where have I said it will not work?

Calm down, eat a biscuit and read the post properly.

I am talking theoretically about the rules as they appeal and fit within the greater rule structure. I am not 'bagging' the work that has been done.

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