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Rules Question: Daemons and VP

 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Nothing off-board can count as BTS. Points count based on destruction or breaking. Between those two rules, nearly all of those situations are covered.

Spacecraft don't count as BTS or towards victory points (because there is no way to destroy them).

Aircraft that are off-board cannot count as BTS. They would count towards points based on destruction as normal. They cannot be broken so no points for breaking.

Reserves (all reserves) still off-board don't count as BTS. Since they have never been on the board, they couldn't have been destroyed and could not count towards points, either.

Aside from special rules, no units may leave the board once in play. If a unit is forced or allowed off-board by a special rule then the special rule should specify how it is treated, e.g. a drop pod diverted off table or Necrons phasing out.

=========

As far as VP for daemons, the way I remember them is a straight per-unit-destroyed point count, like Siege IG Sappers or the way Nids used to be done.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 3:53 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
As far as VP for daemons, the way I remember them is a straight per-unit-destroyed point count, like Siege IG Sappers or the way Nids used to be done.

Thanks, Neal (and to Hena, MV, FB and others). It turns out that this is how our other local chaos player does it, but it had been a while since we played against him, and even longer since he actually used daemons.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:47 am 
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nealhunt wrote:
Aside from special rules, no units may leave the board once in play. If a unit is forced or allowed off-board by a special rule then the special rule should specify how it is treated, e.g. a drop pod diverted off table or Necrons phasing out.


This is an interesting one. What happens to a Banelord that 'staggers' off the table after suffering a critical hit? Does it hit the 'invisible wall' or is it destroyed?

As it is off the table, is it no longer the BTS then? So many ways to read the above quote....

This could matter when you have 3rd turn teleporters hitting the table in the same turn that the Banelord suffered the critical as it could have easily happened in a game between Dobbsy and myself where the Banelord was hugging the table edge and suffered a critical hit.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:10 pm 
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I agree Frogbear. While special rules do cater for Planetfall and Necrons ending up off-table, there is nothing specific in the Titan critical about the effects of staggering off-table. There are several ways this can be handled, but I suggest that a 'friendly' roll of the dice should suffice - after all it is going to be a very rare situation :)


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:43 pm 
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There is nothing friendly about losing my 800 point titan to a simple 4+ dice roll :D

If the die were to show a fail, is the Titan considerred off the table (for BTS) or does it suddenly blow up on the invisible wall and opponent gets the BTS?

Rolling a die for such a situation is ludicrous - regardless of whether it is a friendly or tournament game. It should be specified in the rule for the critical or as a standard rule.

So simple a thing to fix in an FAQ or rule update.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 3:34 am 
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It all depends on whether you have agreed a particular ruling at the start of the game or not. If you manoeuver your titan near the table edge knowing that it might stagger and fall into the 'chasm of doom' (even as the result of a dice roll) then you must accept the consequences.

The point is that even if the titan is actually on the edge, the chances of it actually staggering off into oblivion are quite slim:-
    1/6 (for the critical) * 1/2 (for staggering the wrong way) * the chances of the firer hitting the titan in the first place (having avoided shields).
(or pretty much a racing certainty when it comes to my infamous dice ;D )

Other alternatives might be
  • Assume the edge of the table was an 'impassable object' and stop on the table edge, suffering an additional damage point for hitting the 'impassable object
  • Fall off the edge into the 'chasm of doom'
  • The 'friendly' dice roll (which reduces the chances to ~1/28 at most)
NB, E-UK have adopted the change to Warhounds that the 'staggering' critical also inflicts a further damage point, which could could also be applied to the Banelord (so suffering two damage points for staggering into impassable stuff).

However, I agree that an FAQ on the effect of 'staggering' would also help :).


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:30 am 
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Ginger wrote:
It all depends on whether you have agreed a particular ruling at the start of the game or not. If you manoeuver your titan near the table edge knowing that it might stagger and fall into the 'chasm of doom' (even as the result of a dice roll) then you must accept the consequences.

The point is that even if the titan is actually on the edge, the chances of it actually staggering off into oblivion are quite slim:-
    1/6 (for the critical) * 1/2 (for staggering the wrong way) * the chances of the firer hitting the titan in the first place (having avoided shields).
(or pretty much a racing certainty when it comes to my infamous dice ;D )

Though, you're looking at it from the wrong end of the lens. It'll only be when the event comes up, that there'll be a conflicting perspective. 9 games out of 10, it won't even be an issue. In that tenth game, it's got the potential to completely decide the game.

And BECAUSE it's a rare situation, it's something that is unlikely to be remembered or considered in the "Pre-Game Discussion". Personally, beyond the purely subjective (example, what terrain features count as, if vague), there should be a default NetEA position for every item in the list. Having arguments in the middle of a game because of rules inconsistencies (usually because it's of benefit to the arguer) is my least enjoyable aspect of wargaming. Minimizing that should be a priority of the NetERC in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 3:34 am 
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I am in agreement with MV. Using the excuse of the pre-game discussion as the 'let's talk about everything that could possibly happen" is unviable and does not hold any real weight. I find it is often an excuse (perception wise) to not modify the FAQ.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 8:34 pm 
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I don't disagree with either of the above; what FAQ would you propose given that the situation is not actually covered in the RAW.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 8:39 pm 
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What about a simple reroll of the direction if the unit would go off the board edge?

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:48 am 
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Ginger wrote:
I don't disagree with either of the above; what FAQ would you propose given that the situation is not actually covered in the RAW.


Unless otherwise stated in:
a. the specific army list being played,
b. RAW
c. The specific rules for an ability or unit

...any model that finds any part of it's base leaving the table for whatever reason is considered to be a casualty of the battle.

In regards to the GT scenario, if the model was the BTS, then this objective is awarded to the opponent.

That would be a nice and simple solution for any FAQ I would hope.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 9:41 am 
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frogbear wrote:
...any model that finds any part of it's base leaving the table for whatever reason is considered to be a casualty of the battle.


What do you base this on? I've never seen anything like that in the Epic rules. Are you just extrapolating from the Planetfall rules?

It's a stupid ruling IMO. Having the table edge be a chasm of doom makes sense if troops flee off the table (representing them just running on, not falling off the edge of the world) or by planetfall (makes you not hug the table edge to get a more precise scatter) but as a general rule it stinks.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 11:23 am 
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If in doubt, go for the fairest solution, which to me seems to clearly be to treat the edge of the table as impassible terrain.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 12:10 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
If in doubt, go for the fairest solution, which to me seems to clearly be to treat the edge of the table as impassible terrain.

I agree.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Question: Daemons and VP
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 1:17 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
It's a stupid ruling IMO.


It's GW. Mind you, that you are stating this as a 'stupid' rule when the birthday rule is RAW (joking or otherwise).

Take a step back I says.

If you want stupid, then refer to the airspace rules and tunneling as well. The game is representative. If you want precise and as real as possible, then Epic certainly is not the game to come off on the high brow list of discussions. If anything, the rule that I suggested is in line with GW rulings for their other games - so how 'stupid' can it possibly be? Your the one playing their games.

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