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Defilers

 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:31 pm 
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Defiler is not faster than a Leman Russ


In 40k, it is.

A Leman Russ may move a maximum of 12" per turn (And its firing is severely curtailed when doing so).

When charging, a Defiler moves a minimum of 13", and a maximum of 18".

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 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:48 pm 
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only when charging. without charging it is 6", not more, not less.




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 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:56 pm 
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Didn't they pick up fleet in the new edition?

So their basic movement is 6" + D6" (With no shooting) + 6" (When charging).

Considerably faster than a Dreadnought (The best comparison).

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 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:06 pm 
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(Soren @ Dec. 17 2007,15:48)
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only when charging. without charging it is 6", not more, not less.

That sounds like infiltrator to me...

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 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:11 pm 
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In no particular order:

Sentinels and rough riders do, indeed, have only 20cm move and with Infiltrators they're pretty fast. Boarboyz, on the other hand, do have a 25cm move (and infiltrators to boot!).

20cm move. On its own, this isn't too hot an idea - it seems like the worst of all possible worlds. Just fast enough to prevent the formation from garrisoning but really not fast enough to keep up with a rhino-mounted formation.

Infiltrator. This could perhaps work. It would make it faster, certainly. However, it's somewhat limited in a mixed formation - the Defiler will slow down the formation significantly, while it won't be able to make full use of its full charge move even when moving with rhinos. I'm a bit scared of defilers that can ignore ZOC when charging, however!

Scout. Gets around the issue of not being able to garrison, but I don't really see what impact this will have on the role of defilers - they will be limited to garrisoning formations, but then they tend to just be used to garrison anyway.

Personally, I'm still for Speed 25cm. While I think this might be a little generous based on the 40K rules, it will make the Defiler fulfil the role it should - scuttling death machine supporting CSM formations. If it is any less, it just won't see any more use on the tabletop.

Reaper autocannon. I'm not fussed, but I suspect the twin-las was there to give a little more AT oomph, something that seems to be a little limited in the CSM list.

2x close combat arm attacks. This is a possibility, but with two MW attacks that's a scary beastie! Defilers really aren't much better than Dreadnoughts (actually, thinking about it, they actually aren't better than Chaos Dreadnoughts in 40K), I think giving the thing 3 CC attacks is too much. A boost to CC3+ seems less problematic. And, as Tiny-tim pointed out, the way you've written it is confusing - if we were going for three attacks, this would be the way to do it:
Battle claws / (base contact) / Assault Weapon / MW, Extra attacks (+2)

Armour value: I'd be happy to go for an Invulnerable Save rather than 5+RA. Just be aware that against conventional weaponry this way makes them tougher, while the 5+RA only makes them tougher against MW.


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 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:16 pm 
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(Soren @ Dec. 17 2007,10:23)
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Defiler is not faster than a Leman Russ, sure not and second, it?s no Infiltrator. Please stay realistic in design. This thing will be a Monster with a hack of extra MW-attacks, FF, good shooting and a speed better than MBT????? And sure it does NOT fit into a Drop pod :)

Just curious what it gets too. maybe teleport and scout or leader. We would then have all possibilites taken. ?:D

Dreadnoughts also have heavy flamers and they don?t even get a FF boost from this. So forget this ignore cover for defiler as fast a possible, as this thing is already over the top and unrealistic good.

Realistically, Defilers are as fast or faster than a Leman Russ in 40K. Defilers can move-and-fire just as fast, and can outpace them when charging.

As for Dreadnoughts, they have only got flamers as a secondary built-in weapon. Defilers have twin-linked heavy flamers as a primary weapon system.

Heh. I'd forgotten that Defilers have had their heavy flamer upgraded to a twin-linked heavy flamer. Perhaps we should upgrade that to AP3+? ?:D Actually, that's not a bad idea. I'll make that change to the first page.

Edit: dammit, people are replying faster than I can! ?:glare:






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 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:23 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Dec. 16 2007,20:19)
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1) Increase speed to 25cm. Since we have the precident from 40K, I think we could justify a move of 25cm. That would certainly go a long way to making them more attractive!
2) Remove Indirect Fire. They shouldn't be artillery. It would also make the datafax a little more tidy
3) Reduce save to 5+ but give them Reinforced Armour. That would make them somewhat more survivable without being unreasonable (after all, Defilers ARE tougher than Dreadnoughts in 40K) - they'd be just about as tough vs. normal weapons but would be harder to kill with MWs.
4) Reduce FF to 4+ and remove the extra attack from Heavy Flamer (although it will retain the Ignore cover). This would make it the exact same weapon profile as the Baran Siegemasters Heavy Flamer.
5) Increase CC to 3+. With those big combat arms and crushing legs I think they ought to be better in combat than a Dreadnought.

I'm not sure about the speed.  It sort of depends on what role you envision them playing.  If pressed I'd say 20cm move.

4+ Inv for armor is fine.

At 20cm they'd be a worthwhile option with Land Raider armor formations in the BL list (-5cm move for the formation, decent fire, big assault component), workable in a BL garrison retinue (with just 1 Defiler) and could probably drop in points for the L&D list (no garrison, no IDF are both major drops).

===

BTW, Scout only changes their garrison options when combined with other Scout units.  The garrison criteria are discreet.  You can qualify by slow speed OR 50+% scouts, not a combination of the two.  It would only make a difference in L&D.

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 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:06 pm 
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Yes i meant 1 base attack and 2 MW Extra Attacks.
After all, the Defiler can change up to two weapons for up to two additional attacks.
And the Heavy Flamer is indeed twin-linked, so AP3+ is in order :)

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 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:16 pm 
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Infiltrate does not nessacerily mean commando style ops, it could also be something with WE like capabilities of sweeping all before it.


(BlackLegion @ Dec. 17 2007,23:06)
QUOTE
Yes i meant 1 base attack and 2 MW Extra Attacks.
After all, the Defiler can change up to two weapons for up to two additional attacks.

Well presumably if it was switching weapons you would have to choose in the stats to go for the guns or the assault stuff.


(Lord Inquisitor @ Dec. 17 2007,22:16)
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Realistically, Defilers are as fast or faster than a Leman Russ in 40K. Defilers can move-and-fire just as fast, and can outpace them when charging.

Are perchance eldar guardians faster than Leman Russ in 40k?

According to my 40k mate on messenger the defiler has a worse weapon skill, ballistic skill and initiative (all important stats I guess) than the dred, and with the config we have the same number of attacks.

So it seems it shouldn't be as good in CC as the dred? Though probably with all the firepower better in FF?

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 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:22 pm 
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Defiler is not faster than a Leman Russ, sure not and second, it?s no Infiltrator.


Infiltrator often represents units which have substantially better movement rates under engage conditions then normally, such as units with mounts which can push them extra hard to get in fast, or units which have the capacity to move faster then normal but don't under most conditions for some reason. Defilers seem like perfect examples of the latter, to me, big eight-legged spider-crabs fueled by an angry daemon bound to a mortal shell? Doesn't seem like it'd have much motivation towards moving around normally, but point it at something squishy and it'll be off like a shot to take its bloody vengence against the mortals!

As for speed? At 20cm w/ Infiltrator it'd be generally about as fast as a Leman Russ, not faster, which is pretty fitting I think given that they were built for all-terrain fast moving assaults as far as I can tell.


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 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:24 pm 
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Like the Dreadnought? :)

Type Speed Armour CC FF
AV 20cm 4+ 4+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Battelecannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+ -
Reaper Autocannon 30cm AP4+/AT6+ -
Twin Heavy Flamer 15cm AP3+ Ignore Cover
and (15cm) Small Arms Ignore Cover
Power Claws (base contact) Assault weapon Macro-weapon, Extra Attacks (+1)
OR
Battelecannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+ -
Power Claws (base contact) Assault weapon Macro-weapon, Extra Attacks (+2)

Notes: Infiltrate, Invulnerable Save, Walker. The Heavy Flamer can shoot and be used to confer the Ignore Cover ability to the unit's firefight value.  Choose only one of the above weapon configurations, not both.





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 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:46 pm 
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I like the idea of being able to pick a config as with the Dreanought.

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 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:09 pm 
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4 for 500?  ???

40cm Charge, more firepower than any MBT, MW CC, ignore cover for FREE, ignore ZOC when charging.....an a IS against TK(MW) weapons. please end joking  :glare:





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 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:10 pm 
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(Soren @ Dec. 17 2007,20:09)
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4 for 500?

I don't think I'd ever take them for 500 points!

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 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:15 pm 
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(Chroma @ Dec. 17 2007,20:10)
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(Soren @ Dec. 17 2007,20:09)
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4 for 500?

I don't think I'd ever take them for 500 points!

they are worth 125 per Defiler at ease, please look at the profile.....

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