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Hell Blade and Talon
Soren
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:46 am 
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Tbolts vs. Hell talons:

Armor: 6+ vs. 5+
AA:     4 shots 4+ on CAP (2 at 30cm) 4+ vs. 2 shots at 5+
ground: AT4+, AP 5+ vs. bombs ignore cover and AT4+

In 2 of 3 the hell talon wins (Armor and ground attack) Even he is a FIGHTER Bomber he can use his AA. and at 30 cm most bombers he attacks and for sure no fighter shoot back (2x AA5+ on CAP is not that bad for 125). At 125 you can buy SWARMS of them, not mentioning what 3+ squads of them are doing on ground attack. 125 is far too cheap, sorry.

Summary: looking at the ground attack stats they are worth more than 125.




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Soren
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:49 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Jan. 09 2008,10:44)
QUOTE
You should note that in Imperial Armour Apocalypse the Hell Talons weapons don't have AA-mounts and thus will hit flyers only on a 6+
Only the Hell Blades two Twin Autocannons have AA-Mounts which enables it to use its BS to hit aircrafts.

For my taste we should IA stats not Apocalypse. Apo stats are inferior stats for a inferior game.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:26 pm 
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Perhabs. But the Apocylspe stats emphasize the Hell Talons role of a Bomber and that of the Hell Blade of a Fighter.

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rpr
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:43 pm 
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(Hena @ Jan. 09 2008,14:07)
QUOTE
However that save change (saves twice as often when going 6+ -> 5+) is quite a lot and could alone be enough nudge them to be more expensive than T'bolts, even if the AA attacks are much worse. They are about equal in ground attack capabilities. Perhaps T'bolts are tad better.

Neither would like to risk their save, most of the time when they have to save they jink.

Thunderbolts have a bit better ground attacks and 3 times as good AA capabilities. The far better AA capabilities easily overcome worse save because of the jink rule. But of course this is IMHO, I'm anyway more interested in Hell Blade as what chaos badly needs is AA... :]
(and cheap activations for other lists than Black legion.. =)
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Soren
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:57 pm 
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Tbolts are worse against targets in cover. 1+1bp ignore cover is quite good. Makes a lot of hits which Tbolts can never reach.

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Kleomenes
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:46 am 
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I tried the suggested stats from the SG thread for the Hell Blade before christmas and the craft seemed very good at ground attack, with 45cm range and fighter movement, along with firepower. Given they come in a trio they were relatively able to strafe anything. At one point they strafed a vulture formation alongside a thunderbolt formation doing the same (we were playing a LATD and Black Legion alliance), it made the thunderbolts look like fools. [EDIT: Others present, feel free to gainsay me on that, but it looked that way to me]

TRC's Twin Reaper stats for the Hell Blades look quite good to me, 3 for 175pts, cheapish but not, I think, too cheap. Although they might have less firepower than thunderbolts, they have the numbers to keep on being a threat and the fact their shots are all at 30 cm gives them means they will avoid lots of the defensive AA integral on many bombers. Those stats also eliminate the 45 cm range problem for ground attacking. I'll try them next time I take Hell Blades.

With respect to the Hell Talons, is there anything wrong with the stats in the SG thread other than the havoc launcher doesn't match up to 40k stats? Reducing the havoc launcher to AP6+ only makes it pretty pathetic! Is it not feasible that the thing is loaded with krak missles for AA work? (or something like that)

I agree with Hena that keeping the Hell Talon (and the Hell Blade really) above 150 is a good thing. Otherwise the air activations will offset one of the weaknesses of the black legion list, low activations. On the other hand, if they are both over 200 it may be hard to fit in any aircraft at all! 175 - 200 looks about right to me.




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rpr
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:27 am 
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Hum, I was using 3 Hell Blades (of 2x 30cm 4+/6+/6+) for 200, but that might be too much..

Let's see, (value is caused hits times 1/6, AA is with +1 bonus)
Thunderbolt (75)  ar 6+  AP '5'  AT '4'  Mixed '8'  AA '6'      
Fighta Bomba (50) ar 6+ AP '2'  AT '3'  Mixed '5'  AA '3'
Nightwing (100)   ar 4+  AP '3'   AT '3'  Mixed '6'  AA '6'
Barracuda (83)     ar 6+  AP '6'  AT '4'  Mixed '7'  AA '7'
Doomwing (50)     ar 6+  AP '3'  AT '3'  Mixed '3'  AA '3'
Hell Blade  (?)       ar -     AP '6'  AT '2'  Mixed '6'  AA '4'

Nightwing has lance. Barracude has guided missiles. Doomwing ignores cover.

Ranges vary a bit here, all but Nightwing and Hell Blade has reduced AA against many targets or risk themselves (15cm all-around AA seen in Ork flyers, Barracuda, Thunderhawk etc.)

Of those stats, Fighta-Bomba and Nightwing feel a bit overpriced. In practise, Fighta Bombers do not seem but Nightwings do - armour 4+ is not that great - most attack runs are done so that flyers can jink later on).

But back to Chaos... Hell Blade could indeed be something like 175 for 3, or 200 for 3 if they have the same almost useless armour 6+ :]
To play it safe, I could still test them out as 200 for 3 without save.
(but that 6+ is basically same as nothing...)
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Tooninki
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:18 pm 
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And what stats for HellTalon?
If 3* HellBlade 2*30cm ap4+ / at 6+ / aa 6+ ? save - for 200/275
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Kleomenes
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:58 pm 
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Played a game on sunday with some Hell Talons using the stats from the SG website quoted in the first post on this thread. Unfortunately they only activated once to bomb some rough riders, but they did an acceptable job, killing two and breaking them. It's about what thunderbolts would have done in that situation, but the fact that the Hell Talons would be better against troops more bunched up or in cover means they could justify the 200 point cost, given the 45cm AA attack as well. Still, not much to go on!

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Tooninki
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:37 pm 
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So what stats are people using these days for HellTalon & Hellblades?
Tournament coming so i would like to know...
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rpr
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:00 pm 
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Last time I used Hell Blades as 200 for 3, sv 6+, 2x 30cm AP4+/AT6+/AA6+
Earlier I have used same stats except no save, but the difference is neglible. I guess I would go for the save version. I'd propose that we use it on the tournament, so we will get more input, it cannot be THAT unbalanced that it would have much difference in outcome.

Of Hell Talons, I once earlier used 125/-for-2-with-bad-guns -version but that does not seem to have much support so no more comment on that.
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Tooninki
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:08 pm 
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Why the crappy aa on Hellblades? should it be aa 5+ ?
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Soren
 Post subject: Hell Blade and Talon
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:13 pm 
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because it is 6 times AA6+ at 30cm at it will get 6 times  AA5+ on CAP which is decent good for 200pts. 6 times AA4+ on CAP is simply too much. (not counting that on 30cm no Bomber can shoot back, so they are risk free shots.)




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