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The new Blood Rage....
frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:40 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 10 Jul. 2009, 15:29 )

Neal, I don't understand what you are trying to say here - how could you define 'the nearest enemy' other than the formation that is the closeset by measurement?

I think you are saying that the Failed Berserkers could choose to 'engage' the nearest enemy by actually moving further from them. If so, how would you revise the wording to cause the fomation do what the text implies namely fighting the nearest enemy?

I think what Neal is saying that the text "...Must attempt to assault the closest enemy formation" should be more like "...Must move towards the closest enemy formation to assault.." to force the move that way. An engage action appears to not have a stipulation to move towards the enemy, only the counter charge does.

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Ginger
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:49 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 10 Jul. 2009, 15:36 )

Quote: (Ginger @ 10 Jul. 2009, 15:14 )

Umm, Dobbsy, I understand the dilema. 2+ would be better because there would then be a greater possibility of failing to activate, but cumulative effects may be too great. Perhaps they could get +1 for attempting to engage the nearest enemy to offset these a little?

The rule is there for flavour, not to debilitate the army.

The 1+ initiative is fine. The bloodrage rule should not be the be all and end all. If it happens, then bugger. Otherwise, they are a normal force. Why make it something more than what it needs to be?

The 1+ is fine

I agree with you that it should not debilitate the army, but equally Dobbsy's point is that +1 may be considered too good as it should only be given to the 'elite' Marines and their like. Giving Berserkers a +1 for attempting to engage follows the same line as Orks, showing a preference for getting up close and personal, and also serves to balance out the debilitating effect a little.

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frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:52 pm 
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Easy, no +1 and no -1.

With a 1+ initiative, it is only the blast markers that will send these guys loopy. Much like poking them with a stick one too many times   :p

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:09 pm 
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Agreed, with a 1+ Initiative this rule won't come up too often.

Okay, let me present three "new" alternatives.

The followers of the Blood God live to slay in his name, and there are few as bloodthirsty, favoured and homicidal as the World Eaters. When the scent of the enemy is strong nothing can stand in their path to slaughter, but their frenzy can also cause them to abandon all strategy.

Option 1

Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding Chaos Navy and spacecraft) that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must make an Engage action rather than a Hold action, providing that at least one unit from the formation can end the 'charge' move within 15cm of one unit from the enemy formation. If there are no eligible enemy formations to assault, the formation may make a Hold action as normal.

Note that this is my original wording with a few tweaks and the -1 thing removed. I still think it was pretty robust...

Option 2

Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding Chaos Navy and spacecraft) that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must make one move (at maximum speed while maintaining coherency) towards the closest unengaged enemy unit measured from any unit in the formation. If this move results in at least one unit moving within 15cm of this closest unit, then the World Eaters formation is considered to have made a "charge" move exactly as if an Engage action was made.

This is the best "must charge the closest enemy" wording I can come up with.

Option 3

Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding Chaos Navy and spacecraft) that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must make one 'charge' move as if an Engage action had been made.

This is by far the simplest, and as such is attractive, even though as Neal says, you don't have to move within 15cm so the charge can be deliberately failed. While this isn't terribly characterful, it doesn't really present an issue rules-wise, and the elegance of this wording is appealing.


Some other points:

"Bezerk" units. I still fail to see the reason for this. I would strongly suggest you play without this clause, and see if there are any real issues with applying the rule to all formations. You can always add it in later if you find that without the rule problems arise but as with any list design, try to go for the simplest option. Start simple, add complexity where needed.

Bezerker Marine stats. I'll bring this up in the BL discussion, but I've been trying to use Bezerkers in the BL list and I can't see any reason (beyond possibly daemonic options) that you'd EVER take Bezerkers over Plague Marines. As such I think they need a boost.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:14 pm 
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I prefer option 2.

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Chroma
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:22 pm 
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I believe this has to be a "must", even if it results in a failed assault, this is an uncontrolled blood rage we're talking about, there's no reasoning with it...

Definitely makes for a unique flavour for the army to have something "wildly chaotic" about it.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:24 am 
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Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding Chaos Navy and spacecraft) that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must make one move (at maximum speed while maintaining coherency) towards the closest unengaged enemy unit measured from any unit in the formation. If this move results in at least one unit moving within 15cm of this closest unit, then the World Eaters formation is considered to have made a "charge" move exactly as if an Engage action was made


Why the closest unengaged enemy? Berserkers won't care as long as they see the enemy

Also "measuring from any unit in the formation" is a given when you say "the closest enemy unit " - less wordy

And no, I will be sticking with Berserk. Sorry. I won't change it right now. i want to try it first. Like I said I want the rule to focus on the WEs. I see it that a formation with non-berserk units will all charge with the berserk units. My time in the army taught me that once one of your section is committed to a fight the whole section gets in on it. Ok that is somewhat generalising but I see it that the whole formation would get swept up in the frenzy and also to maintain coherency.

Any formation containing Berserk units in a World Eaters army that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must make one move at maximum speed towards the closest enemy unit while maintaining unit coherency. If this move results in at least one unit moving within 15cm of this closest enemy unit, then the World Eaters formation is considered to have made a "charge" move exactly as if an Engage action was made

This is how I would word it if we use it.

Why would you specifically use the words "charge" instead? Just curious to know why that particular wording is all.... doesn't what you've written have exactly the same effect as taking an engage action where it must attempt to assault - other than the no shooting/regrouping part?

Chroma and I were discussing this and he put forth this option:

When a formation containing any units with the berserk special ability fails an Action Test it receives a Blast marker and, instead of taking a Hold Action, must take an Engage Action against the nearest enemy formation.  During this action, berserk units must use their charge move to get as close as possible to at least one unit in the target enemy formation.

Would that be more to your liking Lord I? As Chroma mentioned in our conversation it's less undefined.
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frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:09 am 
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Quote: (Lord Inquisitor @ 10 Jul. 2009, 19:09 )

Bezerker Marine stats. I'll bring this up in the BL discussion, but I've been trying to use Bezerkers in the BL list and I can't see any reason (beyond possibly daemonic options) that you'd EVER take Bezerkers over Plague Marines. As such I think they need a boost.

Any suggestions you had in mind LI?

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:38 am 
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Ok lads. Here's the rough draft of the final 1.1 document.

Remember this is a rough final draft.

We just need to check for errors and typos. At this stage I'll be using the Blood rage rule I've put in there. I can change it but unless there's a huge outcry against it, it can stay for now.

It's in rough word file in ZIP form because as a PDF it's too large to post here :( Does anyone know where I can host it as a finished product? perhaps a file website like photobucket for written files?

OK DOn't download the zip file. go here instead:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....y324553
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Chroma
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:45 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 13 Jul. 2009, 01:38 )

It's in rough word file in ZIP form because as a PDF it's too large to post here :( Does anyone know where I can host it as a finished product? perhaps a file website like photobucket for written files?

My pdf creator has produced a 124kb file... and iis it really necessary to relist all the Chaos generic rules in the document?




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Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:07 am 
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and iis it really necessary to relist all the Chaos generic rules in the document?

If you're asking whether it is for the final document then yes. if you're asking for the rough, no it isn't.

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British
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:19 am 
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Might I make a suggestion that alter the hellmouth, from my discussions making the Chaos Titan Legions, the hellmouth is generally considered to be....well..broken, I've opted to cut out ignore cover from it in my list.

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zombocom
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:27 am 
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Quote: (British @ 13 Jul. 2009, 03:19 )

Might I make a suggestion that alter the hellmouth, from my discussions making the Chaos Titan Legions, the hellmouth is generally considered to be....well..broken, I've opted to cut out ignore cover from it in my list.

The current netERC suggestion is to lose macro weapon on the hellmouth, keeping ignore cover

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British
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:28 am 
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Ah, my mistake.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:56 am 
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Done!
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