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Black Legion rules review
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:36 pm 
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For minimalist changes ok :)

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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:42 pm 
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Yep, I can't see anyone disagreeing with any of those, though I really think that losing MW on the Feral should be in the tournament mods.

To me that's the number one problem with the list.




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jaldon454
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:57 pm 
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With BL you have to take several retinues, a couple of ferals and some obliterators.
With IG you have to take 2-3 mech infantry cos, scouts, shadowswords,hydras, vultures and deathstrikes.
With SM you have to have several thunderhawks and several warhounds.


I am sorry but I cannot agree with this.

My Space Marines hardly ever field even a single Thunderhawk, and only Warhounds around 50% of the time.

My IG never field more then a single Mech Company, never field Deathstrikes, never field Shadowswords, and never field Vultures.

My BL only field Oblitirators about half the time.

I know either my opponents are real dullards or all the faces on my dice have sixes on them :laugh:

By in large too many players of the GT scenario lose sight of the objectives of that scenario and go into a frenzy of destroying things.

Both here on the forums for Epic-A (from  the very start), and with my gaming friends in two states, I hear the repeated lament "How do I kill such and such formation" or "I can't win if I don't have something to counter this or that formation."

Wrong, wrong, wrong four out of the five objectives in Epic-A deal with ground that cannot defend itself and are often there for the taking when facing opponents that believe they must destroy the enemy to win.

The result of this "Destroy them all and let JJ sort em out" is not only a recipe for defeat against an opponent who doesn't, but also results in "You gotta field this or lose" mentality that leads to that very defeat.

In 1940 the Germans invaded France and in four weeks tore apart an opponent that not only had better tanks then them, but a lot more of those better tanks (The majority of the German tanks had 30mm of armor and a 37mm pop gun. The French averaged 50-60mm of armor and 47mm guns that could easily penetrate the armor of all the tanks fielded by the Germans).

How ???

Better tactics and keeping their eye on the objectives. The short of it was they didn't directly face the French tanks to beat them, they fought their way around them.

The same applies in the Epic-A GT scenario, you don't need to field any formation to win IF you keep your eye on the ball.

My two cents anyways :devil:

Jaldon :p

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Steve54
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:07 pm 
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I've been playing for quite some time and I do understand thst objectives rather than killing are the key to epicA. When learning to play I think that is one of the most important realisations.

My point was that in tournaments - where the majority of players will pick lists that, at least to a certain extent, they believe will be competitive not a single list has AFAIK finished in the top 5 without those combinations.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:37 pm 
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To be fair to Steve54, in the UK we do seem to see a preponderance of Ferals, Warhounds and Terminators in the various lists because they all make very good "spoilers" - designed to lay BMs at extreme range (or even break the more fragile enemy) so creating an activation advantage. And they are also fairly resiliant to such attacks by the opposition.

However, while there have been changes to Warhounds and Terminators, the changes to the Ferals  are conspicuous by their absence in the Chaos list - Like others, I thought dropping MW had been agreed, so what happened?!

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:05 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ May 30 2008,17:18)
QUOTE
Right, time to make a decision, here are the minimalist changes:

Black Legion modifications

Army list changes:
  • Increase Obliterators to 85 points each
  • Add the Assault Company to the Chaos Titan Legion War Engine box
  • Ravager titan reduced to 625 points
  • Raptors increased to 40 points each
Unit changes:
  • Daemon Prince: Remove Titan Killer (1) from both weapons
  • Reduce Greater Daemons to 7 summoning points

No Feral?

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:06 pm 
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Now as you mention it...ans the Decimator?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:10 pm 
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For minimalist changes, the Decimator just about passes muster, especially as it's being moved into the 1/3rd Allies allowance.

For the Feral, I say drop Macro-Weapon status.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:13 pm 
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I would put the Feral in there too at +25 and leave the decimator - especially with the Assault Co moving

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:16 pm 
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How did I miss the Feral?

Increase Feral points cost to 325. I'll edit the list.

While I prefer the MW drop too, I've been convinced that changing the stats can wait until the full review.
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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:17 pm 
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Hmmm. I really think dropping the macro weapon is more sensible than a price increase. I thought that had been just about universally accepted?

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Ginger
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:31 pm 
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(zombocom @ May 30 2008,19:17)
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Hmmm. I really think dropping the macro weapon is more sensible than a price increase. I thought that had been just about universally accepted?

Actually Lord =I=, Though I hate the things with a passion (as Steve will tell you :) ), I also thought the MW drop preferable to the increase in price.

As a general rule, IMNSHO we should tend to tone units down rather than increase costs, because we need to provide a smoother set of statistics rather than increase the variance becasue of the impact (or otherwise) of possibly overpowered units. (and I apologise in advance if I have got the language wrong - I hope you understand what I am trying to say :) )

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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:41 pm 
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Also note that due to the Daemon Prince's attacks being "extra attacks", Macro Weapon or MW is not mentioned, so removing Titan Killer will NOT revert it to macro:

CODE


Possessed Weaon    (Base Contact)     Assault Weapon     Titan Killer(1), Extra Attacks (+2)
Warp Blast                (15 cm)                Small Arms               Extra Attack(+1), Titan Killer(1)



I presume you want the extra attacks to be macro, so that will require replacing "Titan Killer(1)" with "Macro Weapon".

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:49 pm 
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Ferals: I thought we wanted to try to avoid changing unit stats if a points change would patch the issue until the full review? I think this is sensible.

Daemon princes: My copy says in the notes:
Possessed Weapon - Macro Weapon, Titan Killer (1), Extra Attack (+2).
Warp Blast - Macro Weapon, Extra Attack (+1), Titan Killer (1)

So removing Titan Killer leaves it as MW, right? Does your copy say differently?
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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:50 pm 
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The copy on the Specialist Games website is as I quoted.

Ferals: I thought we wanted to try to avoid changing unit stats if a points change would patch the issue until the full review? I think this is sensible.


Jervis feels it's the other way around. Changing stats is fine, but not points costs, since that doesn't invalidate anyone's army lists.

Complaints about the Ferals aren't because they're too cheap (at 325 you can still take 3 in a 3000 battle anyway), but that the gun is too good.




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