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World Eaters List - Be Scared!
Dobbsy
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:03 am 
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Whoops missed this.
You are only talking about 50-75 points off a unit of 8 I would think, however with your proposal being an effective CC measure, the discount in price may even be as little as 35-50 points total.


Sure but a price cut is a price cut across the army as a whole, right? If you get 100 points back from purchasing 2-3 warbands that's 100 points somewhere else, or back into a warband.

Just be aware of that as well. The cheaper units may allow more upgrades, but rarely an additional unit. Just my view.
Sorry I'm not sure what you mean here. The additional unit is an upgrade.

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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:18 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 26 Aug. 2009, 13:03 )

Just be aware of that as well. The cheaper units may allow more upgrades, but rarely an additional unit. Just my view.

Sorry I'm not sure what you mean here. The additional unit is an upgrade.

The points saved may not be enough to get another formation. The points saved may just be enough to beef up existing units, thereby keeping the same problem with having fewer activations.

Anyway, I would rather keep the points for your army list to your thread. I would rather this thread concentrate on the units for a World Eater force or the list itself. I believe the Bloodslaughterer was the topic...

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:22 am 
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Would there be any problem with having you adopt Transport 2?

Only the cost of the formation.

Two reasons:

1. It meets the fluff (1 unit of berzerkers would naturally be 8 men or two stands in Epic)
2. To keep the unit consistent across lists
Hmm, well to be honest I'm not sure #2 should concern us right now. Obviously it would be nice to have a common design but as we're going slightly different routes across our lists anyway, any change in unit design in your list doesn't necessarily have to mirror my list.

I can work it with 1 myself, but two gives more breadth for change later down the track. Also it would not effect that unit you mentioned.
Well in the wash up, 1 could just as easily become 2 down the track. The single upgrade is essentially a mount for the champ unit so it doesn't matter if only 1 unit can climb aboard. How does 1 per fiend effect your formation?

Update: Sizes of Chaos Marine units in 40k are 5-10 models. If you are seriously considering these as an addition, Transport 2 would definately be right. That is what this list will go with.
No worries. I'm going to stick with 1 unit per 'fiend for now, to help keep formation costs down. After all this is Chaos  :laugh:  My design is a complete formation not just an upgrade to a warband. The 4+4 design for the formation means it's also 8 units and it feels more ad-hoc to me (e.g as you don't get 8 zerker units, just 4) in regards to the whole WEs = a warband concept. Right now I'm not heavily concerned about how many individual marines constitute a squad in Epic as that can be anywhere from 3-5 per base.

Anyway, I would rather keep the points for your army list to your thread
Wow. Ok, I just thought you were interested in how I was doing it going by your questions is all....

I shall stay out of your threads if you prefer  :agree:
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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:30 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 26 Aug. 2009, 14:22 )

I shall stay out of your threads if you prefer  :agree:

Dude. It's not like that  :(

We need to keep threads on track and discussing points costs of your list in mine is not productive for history sake when referring within the lists.

No pushing or shoving intended   :agree:

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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:10 am 
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OK

Below is the proposal for the Slaughterfiend for the World Eater list:

Slaughterfiend
Type Speed AR CC FF
AV   20cm  4+ 3+ 5+

Weapon/Range/Firepower/Notes
-Battle Cannon/75cm/AP4+/AT4+/-
-Twin Power Flails/Base Contact/Assault Weapons/MW, Extra attack (+1)
-Spiked Battle Claws/Base Contact/Assault Weapons/MW, Extra attack (+1)

Notes: Fearless, Infiltrator, Invulnerable Save, Walker.
Transport(2): If the slaughterfiend elects to use it's Infiltrator ability on a charge, any transported units will have to make a Dangerous terrain test.

Upgrade, cost and support roles to be discussed.




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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:15 am 
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and to keep the 'to-review' ideas current:

To Review
- Bloodslaughters Transport ability reviewed for inclusion
- Bloodslaughters reviewed as an upgrade choice for a unit or character after the Transport option is discussed
- Bloodslaughters and Slaughterfiends to be given their own unit (as a support option)
- Mutants and Big mutants to be looked at as an inclusion (makes sense that World Eaters would utilize such examples of pure strength - although unwieldy - in combat as potential fodder)
- Review the role of World Eater Initiates and determine whether a longer ranged weapon is appropriate for a price increase or a drop in CC
- Potential review of Doom Blasters and Cannons of Khorne merging as one support option rather than being two separate choices - whilst still keeping the numbers as 3 and 4 respectively.
- Greater Brass Scorpion to be added (hopefully soon)
- Review all titan weapon fit-outs
- Review whether Bloodrage is appropriate for the Initiates and Bloodgors

Errors to be fixed up:
- Transport capacity for the Despoiler

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:12 am 
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Are you pricing the slaughterfiends at 75 points a pop?

Would there be any problem with having you adopt Transport 2?
I take it by the singularity of the slaughterfiend and the unit that the Transport capacity for Epic purposes would be 2 stands (?)
We need to keep threads on track and discussing points costs of your list in mine is not productive for history sake when referring within the lists.

Hehe. Best not to ask questions you don't want to hear the answers to   :vD - I'm nothing if not communicative that way  :;):

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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:41 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 26 Aug. 2009, 17:12 )

Hehe. Best not to ask questions you don't want to hear the answers to   :vD - I'm nothing if not communicative that way  :;):

Dude. This is really destructive. I was trying to help you out.

I would appreciate if you please refrain from diverting this thread further. Pointing out details as above serves no purpose. It does not look good with competing interests.

Thank you




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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:56 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 26 Aug. 2009, 16:15 )

and to keep the 'to-review' ideas current:

To Review
- Bloodslaughters Transport ability reviewed for inclusion
- Bloodslaughters reviewed as an upgrade choice for a unit or character after the Transport option is discussed
- Bloodslaughters and Slaughterfiends to be given their own unit (as a support option)
- Mutants and Big mutants to be looked at as an inclusion (makes sense that World Eaters would utilize such examples of pure strength - although unwieldy - in combat as potential fodder)
- Review the role of World Eater Initiates and determine whether a longer ranged weapon is appropriate for a price increase or a drop in CC
- Potential review of Doom Blasters and Cannons of Khorne merging as one support option rather than being two separate choices - whilst still keeping the numbers as 3 and 4 respectively.
- Greater Brass Scorpion to be added (hopefully soon)
- Review all titan weapon fit-outs
- Review whether Bloodrage is appropriate for the Initiates and Bloodgors

Errors to be fixed up:
- Transport capacity for the Despoiler

Good news

Morgan is back this week so all the above ideas will be reviewed throughout the week

Cheers.....

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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:13 am 
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A decision has been made to shelve the Post Skalathrax list for now, as we do not want to dilute the development of the base army and the troops therein. So development in the immediate future will be on the World Eaters Heresy List.

Upon feedback under the post of God Specific Lists, I have taken this specific quote from neilhunt to form a basis of review of the base units:

However, when you have several small formations of 2-4 units in close proximity or a large formation of 6 or so, they can form very large barriers.  Those barriers are nearly impossible to shift and very difficult to shoot a hole through.  At that point, it starts to become somewhat "gamey" and it can be highly frustrating - not in a good "This is a real struggle" kind of way, but in a bad "This is just not fair" kind of way.


So what the current proposal that we are going to explore is the following (copied from the God Specific List Thread (only attributing it to berzerkers at the moment for discussions sake):

*********************************************
Remove Fearless in place of....

1. On a charge action initiated by World Eater Berzerkers, a Berserker may roll an additional attack on the first round of combat.

2. In an assault(only), berzerkers may make an armour save vs any extra hits suffered for losing the combat.
*********************************************

So in effect, they

Good Points
1. Become good on the first round of a combat that they initiate,
2. Can potentially have some staying power within a combat

Detriment on losing Fearless
1. They become more susceptible to shooting
2. They have to move out of 15cm of an enemy unit after losing a combat
3. They have a chance of losing models via extra hits

Personally I think this demonstrates a good alternative to replacing Fearless, however I am inviting discussion on it from here.




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Blish
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:30 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 27 Aug. 2009, 04:13 )

A decision has been made to shelve the Post Skalathrax list for now, as we do not want to dilute the development of the base army and the troops therein. So development in the immediate future will be on the World Eaters Heresy List.

Upon feedback under the post of God Specific Lists, I have taken this specific quote from neilhunt to form a basis of review of the base units:

*********************************************
Remove Fearless in place of....

1. On a charge action initiated by World Eater Berzerkers, a Berserker may roll an additional attack on the first round of combat.

2. In an assault(only), berzerkers may make an armour save vs any extra hits suffered for losing the combat.
*********************************************

So in effect, they

Good Points
1. Become good on the first round of a combat that they initiate,
2. Can potentially have some staying power within a combat

Detriment on losing Fearless
1. They become more susceptible to shooting
2. They have to move out of 15cm of an enemy unit after losing a combat
3. They have a chance of losing models via extra hits

Personally I think this demonstrates a good alternative to replacing Fearless, however I am inviting discussion on it from here.

I can't really see them losing the first round of combat under these conditions.

:mad:
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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:08 am 
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Quote: (Blish @ 27 Aug. 2009, 17:30 )

I can't really see them losing the first round of combat under these conditions.

Well if they charge, it depends on who they are up against.

If they get charged, then that is another story.

It is the effect of shooting and breaking that is the big deal here and the big game changer for the list.




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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:25 am 
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**This decision has been updated. Please see next post**



Quote: (frogbear @ 27 Aug. 2009, 13:13 )

*********************************************
Remove Fearless in place of....

1. On a charge action initiated by World Eater Berzerkers, a Berserker may roll an additional attack on the first round of combat.

2. In an assault(only), berzerkers may make an armour save vs any extra hits suffered for losing the combat.
*********************************************

Based on the discussions and feedback from the God Specific thread, I will give the above rule a playtest within the week and offer up the results and feedback.

The rule will apply to all 'World Eater' units being:
- Berserkers
- Terminators
- Chosen
- Bike Unit

Other units such as Juggers will keep the Fearless rule for now as they are more Daemon than marine, and the LV appears to be an appropriate set-off for such an ability.

I am unsure about the price difference for the units, but I am thinking at starting at ~35points cheaper (being discussed this morning) overall for now.




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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:49 am 
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After a morning of brainstorming and debate, we looked at a few options.

The whole goal was to remove Fearless from World Eater base units and find a replacement to appease many of the concerns regarding an all Fealess army.

Morgan was not happy with the idea stated above (previous post), however we started to work out what the points difference would be while comparing a multitude of other lists. During that time, this was scrapped in favour of keeping the points at the same value and finding a Fearless replacement.

We have come up with a few ideas, and we will be taking the list to version v0.9.1 with the changes. I will attempt to get this done later tonight. Essentially what the changes we are looking at are as follows:

- Remove Fearless from World Eater Berserkers, Bikes, Terminators, & Chosen
- Decrease the CC of all these units by 1 (3+ Berserkers, Terminators, Chosen, 4+ for Bikes)
- +1 extra attack for each of these units as a base stat (normal attack)
- Adopt the Stubborn rule for all the above units.
- Formations without a Fearless unit will be 2+ initiative
- Character units/upgrades will retain/attain the Fearless skill

Now there are a few things in there to consider, and I know that the first thing is the use of the Stubborn rule. This does not make them Plague Marines. There are essential differences so I would ask you to look at a Nurgle list before making that assumption. The 3+ save is the first one.

Stubborn is being used not for the name, yet for the ability is ensues, much like the skills 'Walker' as used by the White Scars, and Infiltrator for such units as Juggernaughts. The name withstanding, we believe that the ability is representative of these maddened individuals.

You may also wonder at the costs for units remaining the same and compare these to a Nurgle list (Hena_V4). It is our belief that the list in the comparison may be over-priced in this regard, and that the points in this list are in line with the balance for Epic as a game.

The -1CC yet +1EA is to give the World Eaters more hitting power in an assault. With the removal of Fearless, they will quickly become a force that is non-competative with their reliance on CC. Due to this, we wanted to represent the fierceness of CC with World Eaters in that they should not be losing close combats. Hence their close combat factor has increased by about 50%.

Initiative 2+ for units without a Fearless unit will demonstrate how disorganised these units are without a leader. They will be more inclined to suffer from the Blood Rage rule.

Note: I do have a personal concern/reservations regarding the Battle Barge and Cruiser being at a 2+ for an army that relies on such tactics.

So I will attempt to get the V0.9.1 list updated and out today/tonight. We envision giving this about 3 playtests at least to get a feel on how the new additions/retractions work.

Any feedback on the proposals above?




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Blish
 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:45 am 
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Well no use on me putting comments up really, as I had no real issue with the Fearless rule as such.

So I don't want to really get into a debate / discussion about the new changes.

:devil:
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