What?

I have a supporter for the same ideals? Excellent!

I support what The Lord I says....

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I don't like allowing them to shoot when they fail, as that gives them a get-out clause to stop them engaging unfavourably. Is it really fluffy for a berzerker squad that fails to activate will be able to stand still and prepare to fire the weapons that they don't have?

Force them to engage, just don't give the rule to shooty stuff.

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Regardless. I think we are at a point where the 'champion' Dobbsy can make a decision and close off one of the rules as ready for playtest.

Dobbsy, I say just choose one or the other, stamp it as version 1.1 and let's get to test-playing it. We could keep discussing this for another week, so I think we just need someone (yourself) to push this forward.

Cheers...

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Why complicate things?

Dobbsy

Perhaps you should take note of your closing sig in "KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID"

I have, and therefore I present the Cannon of Khorne proposal here without having to look through this entire thread for it:

Chaos Cannon of Khorne (Khorne)
Type                Speed          Armour         Close Combat     Firefight
Armoured Vehicle  15cm            4+                 6+              5+

Weapon          Range     Firepower    Notes
Warpcannon        30cm       MW2+      Titan Killer(1), Slow-firing

Notes: Invulnerable Save, Fearless.

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I am unsure as to the latest data from Apocalypse, yet the old Cannon of Khorne looked a little like this (mind you they were the old rules):

Mv 10cm
Save 3+
Weapon : Warpcannon
Range: Spacial (unlimited I believe)
Attack Dice : 2-10 BP
Notes: Barrage

...and a little tidbit I found on it's warpcannon:
The Cannon of Khorne focusses Warp energy and releases a bolt which tears a hole in the fabric of reality. Everything caught in the blast is sucked into the Warp and destroyed.


It would appear the one placed forward by Black Legion appears to be representative other than the distance it can shoot. At 30cm, it is not exactly in the same role it would have played when first envisioned - now it is more like a FF support or an objective holder.

Personally I would like to see it to go back to its original purpose as the long distance artillery support for a Khorne force - their only dedicated one.

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I decreased the range on the Cannon of Khorne to match the D-Cannon on the Eldar Cobra because they seem to use a similar technology. But from the description the Warpcannon seems to shoot a more focused beam hence no BP.

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Could I check what the WE initiatives are and how they are modified by the Beserker rule, if at all now.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Ginger -
At present, they are not modified at all by the rule. Also without the possible adjustment to 2+ I'm still debating, they're listed with a 1+ initiative.  I'm a little torn between 1+ which all space marines share and a possible 2+ which might be necesary to balance them a little more - if that's even needed. Having an inititative which sees them failing few activations, the Blood Rage rule would not come into effect that often, unless they have blast markers or are attempting to retain. 2+ also could equate more to them having less control - a staple item for World Eaters. It would definitely promote more failed activations....

The problem I see is that at 2+, both of those factors become problematic as they are then looking at 4+ and will take a toll as the game progresses as the retinues start to accumulate BMs more readily as they close with the enemy/break etc. I'm also aware of the ease with which BMs can be applied to formations. I'm worried they'd be getting bogged down rather than moving forward like a Space Marine formation should have less trouble doing. i know the game is designed to do this across-the-board but I'm not sure which way to go with this.

Would 1+ be too much?

Dobbsy

1+ is fine. We are not going to fix everything in theory.

I recommend we get the next version of this out with full stats on things that we have.

Things need to be tested in game. Personally I would like to start making a force up to play with the next version. If it keeps going on at this pace, I will be putting the limited time I have with epic gaming back to Tyranids or a Squat list that I have been meaning to have tested.

I would prefer however to put that time in with some World Eater havok.

Cheers dude

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Okay, several people have discussed the effect as if it required movement towards the closest enemy.

There is no such requirement in the last version Dobbsy posted.  "Must attempt to assault the closest enemy formation" is not defined as to game effect.  The Berzerkers could just elect to move away with their Engage/Charge move and the assault would not occur.

That would effectively limit a Berzerker formation on Hold to assault and move options - no fire or regroup.  Perhaps that is enough.  However, it is different from "must move towards the closest enemy."

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Neal

Umm, Dobbsy, I understand the dilema. 2+ would be better because there would then be a greater possibility of failing to activate, but cumulative effects may be too great. Perhaps they could get +1 for attempting to engage the nearest enemy to offset these a little?

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Neal, I don't understand what you are trying to say here - how could you define 'the nearest enemy' other than the formation that is the closeset by measurement?

I think you are saying that the Failed Berserkers could choose to 'engage' the nearest enemy by actually moving further from them. If so, how would you revise the wording to cause the fomation do what the text implies namely fighting the nearest enemy?

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

The rule is there for flavour, not to debilitate the army.

The 1+ initiative is fine. The bloodrage rule should not be the be all and end all. If it happens, then bugger. Otherwise, they are a normal force. Why make it something more than what it needs to be?

The 1+ is fine

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