Quote: (frogbear @ Jan. 15 2010, 23:58 )
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I think this is a little too expensive.
That is a tough one. I have considered the costs against E&C's and Zomobo's beastmen, as well as the World Eater Bloodgors. The background costing considered also looked at various other armies (Orks, Imp Guard), and also took into account Strategy rating, use and supporting army.
- Remember that the Thousand Sons have a strategy rating of 5+
- Thousand Sons also have some really hard RA and Fearless Core units
- FF I judge to be about 1.25 - 1.5 times more effective than CC
- MW FF I judge to be 1.5 - 2.0 times more effective that CC MW
Hence all the reasons above came out to 200 points keeping in line with all the work I did pricing the Bloodgors.
Compare them to a Cultist coven, though. Fewer units with clearly worse stats. SR5 doesn't make up for that much.
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Subbing in possible daemons for the beastmen I was thinking along the lines of...
Novitiate Sorcerer
AR/CC/FF/Weapon/Range/Firepower
6+/6+/5+/(spell)/(small arms 15cm)
Novitiate Cabal - Initiative 2+, 150 points
1 TSons Lord (the trainer - possibly Icon Bearer or custom character)
9 Novitiate Sorcerers
Upgrades - Pact, Icon, Thrall Wizards
Where are the subs? No Beastmen?
The subs would be daemons via summoning kit.
I'm hesitant on the idea of beastmen with TSons. The Rubric has anti-mutant implications and I can't think of any background that implies they would have extensive slaves (Why would you if you have a horde of Rubric automatons that never question and never tire?).
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I was also considering people's collections and what they would have readily available to use with such a list.
This is fair, but I think anyone hard-core enough to be playing alternative cult lists will likely have an extensive collection. I'm also trying to introduce only a reasonable number of new units.
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- Noviate Sorcerer looks fine
- Lord Noviate - Should have something to stand out but not too much. Leader I would think is a must.
Remember the main goal is to get a cheaper formation yet not too cheap that it can be pop-corned. 150 is pretty cheap IMO. If you needed to, give the Lord Noviate the Daemonic Pact ability and cost them at 175 points base (personally I would go 200 points and err on the side of caution). It would definitely start to give them a place within the list.
Compared to cultist units or IG infantry, they have marginally better armor (any kind of cover making that irrelevant) and a higher SR. They have the same initiative. As drawbacks, they have no ranged fire. To me, due to the lack of ranged fire being a really large drawback, that sounds about equal or even a bit less. Both Cultists and IG infantry are ~15-16 points, so that's what I used as a baseline.
I was thinking that the Novitiates would be a fairly rare formation and be in the 0-1 per Retinue category. There can't be that many potential recruits out there. That would mean no use as popcorn and that they would take up a valuable support slot in the force org. That is again a downgrade when compared to both Covens and IG infantry because those formations add support slots (and for the IG, the extremely valuable IG fire support upgrade).
All that said, I can go with 175. That's something like 9x15 = 135, +40 for the character.
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It could even be tricked out as a Greater Daemon conduit for ~375, including the GD.
Let the player decide that. If they wish to spend the points, then let them do it.
Of course. I just think it's a cool option.
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Rubric Terminator Costing
I feel these guys are far too cheap. I agree with Hena's Death Guard costing in that these guys should be worth 100 points a unit (minimum). That is not even taking into account the extra 50 points Hena has on his costings and I have for the World Eaters who pay to (same as Hena) to teleport. As it stands the Rubric terminators are exactly the same as Death Guard yet the Thousand Sons have a 5 Strategy Rating.
As these are 'Rubric' terminators, I think the 3+CC & 3+FF is unjustified, and that both these stats (or just the CC) should go up to 4+ (following the example of the 'Rubric' Marines in a way. This would distinguish them from other Terminators. This alone would make up for the +1 Strategy rating
Good point. IIRC, I had them at ~85 originally, then dropped them to 75 for the pure Rubric version which had no ranged attack. I think I never bumped them back up.
I don't think that Fearless Chaos Termies are a full 100 points, though they should be close. In a small formation, Fearless isn't that much better than TSKNF because even though they don't hackdown, they are easy to break and keep broken.
I'd be okay with a reduced CC value based on lower Initiatives in 40K, inability to initiate a charge and less ability to maneuver or react while closing range, but Rubric marines actually gain bonuses to shooting which makes them monsters at the "wall of lead" kind of firefight.
With a 4+CC, keeping in mind that the Teleport/CC combo is one of the nastiest options termies have, what do you think is fair? ~85?
  Could you imagine a unit of Librarians? (plural) Ouch!
. The only reason I bought it was because Ahriman was a major character in the book. That said, these guys are made from the geneseed of sorcerers who didn`t get zapped. 
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