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Remember that I'm looking at extremes at the moment

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It's no problem, I'm just making sure that I'm looking at all angles first.

i wonder if any of the people speaking out against the potential changes have actually played with any of the traitor guard lists...

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~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

Hi, I know the opinion of a new guy isn't worth shit, but I would like to see a Traitor Guard list that was light on/absent of out of production figures. One that I could collect using currently in production chaos miniatures (perhaps using Warmaster models for Greater demons). To my eyes the discussion here seems somewhat redundant if the list is revised and still then relies on OOP models.

Perhaps in fluff terms the list could represent a freshly turned regiment rather than one that has been long term corrupted?

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Hi Ouroboros,

You voice is just as valid as anyone elses. There are already experimental lists for the Vraksian & Bloody Hand traitor guard, plus a mixture of guard and marines in the experimental Alpha Legion list.

As I've said I hope to get something up in the next month or so with a revised sellection system that might make the list easier to get into and hopefully better to play.

Hi Ouroboros- the problem is that the only GW model for Chaos is the plastic Chaos Horde infantry. That contains a mixture of Chaos Space Marines, cultists and daemons:

Chaos Space Marines:
2 Chaos Space Marine command groups, 6 stands of Chaos Space Marines, 2 stands of Havocs, 2 stands of Chaos Terminators, 2 stands of Noise Marines, 2 stands of Khorne Beserkers,

Cultists:
4 stands of Cultists, 4 stands of Beastmen,

Daemons:
2 stands of Flesh Hounds, 2 stands of Bloodletters, 2 stands of Daemonettes, 2 stands of Plaguebearers and 2 stands of Tzeentch flamers

So for a L&TD army that gives you just choice 2 units plus summoned daemons. Not enough to base a whole army on. That means that any L&TD list including currently available figures would have to be a Traitor Guard using primarily current Imperial Guard models. Just with extra cultists and summoned daemons.

That could fit in with dividing the current L&TD list in two: one being Traitor Guard and the other being cultists with Daemon Engines. My one concern would be how this Traitor Guard list would be different from Vraksian & Bloody Hand lists.

Cheers

James

Hi Tim

Have you got in any games with L&TD recently or thought any more about splitting the list?
My old regular Epic opponent Colin was back up in Leeds for the weekend so we got chatting about the various playtest lists including L&TD.

You will be relieved to know that Colin shared your views that L&TD list at the moment is currently bloated. And whilst it is externally balanced vs other army lists, that it is not especially balanced internally. His view was that he did nt see many daemon engines being taken and that people were mainly taking the IG stuff.

That may be partly down to model availability. I know when I played several playtest games against Colin a couple of years back he used to take mainly ex-Imperial units plus coven infantry when he played L&TD.

We discussed several possible L&TD lists:
1) Traitor Guard recently turned Traitor based on Steel Legion list with a couple of chaos characters and limited Chaos aalies. For me this is perfectly encaptured by Vraksian Traitors.

2) Traitor Guard having been exposed to Chaos taint over a longer period. This would be more coven infantry with some Steel Legion IG support. They would have started to lose equipment due to battlefield attrition and breakdown etc. So IG elements would be platoon sized rather than also including company sized. This would be the current L&TD list if you stripped out the Daemon Engines.

3) Cultists swarming out of the Eye of Terror. They would have more lower tech equipment- sort of Chaotic siegemasters. You could take coven infantry as before but with the likes of Land Transporters, Siegfrieds, Ragnaroks and maybe Malcadors. Plus those sort of Daemon Engines that they quickly knocked up- in current models we have maybe the Defiler. Would be interesting to see what new Daemon Engines Forgeworld comes up with. This looks fairly similar to concept of Bloody Hand list to me.

4) Daemonworld army with daemons as troops rather than being summoned- covered by the Daemonworld list.

5) Old school army with cultists and Daemon Engines- this would be the current L&TD list with all of the IG stuff stripped out. It would probably not appeal to new players as they don't have ready access to long OOP Deamon Engine models. However it would certainly be used by long-time players with large numbers of Daemon Engines. Did think you would be lacking AA without Hydras- would need something like AA Defilers or on 1 or more of Daemon Engines. Colin was concerned that Daemon Engines were POTENTIALLY underpowered as they were easily suppressed.

So it looks like 1, 3 and 4 are prefectly covered by the Vraksian Traitors, Bloody Hand and Daemonworld lists already. So all we would need to do is strip out the current L&TD list into 2 and 5. The latter might need work to make sure that Daemon Engines are not underpowered/overcosted (plus add AA).

That would leave us with just the 2nd one. And how to differentiate it from both the Vraksian Traitors and Bloody Hand lists. Colin has convinced me over my earlier objections that such a list was unnecessary and just spreading L&TD too thinly by list proliferation.

It would also be a list that new players such as Ouroboros would be able to collect. The core company choices would be Covens built up from the currently available GW plastic Chaos infantry. The support choices would be from current GW IG range (but platoon sized as opposed to the Vraksian Traitors option of company sized formations of Leman Russ, Basilisks and Malcadors).

Cheers

James

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Would just note that a list representing a chaos-influenced rebellion on an imperial world might possibly be the most iconic list type (that's currently the background for the Stigmatus list). The fear of rogue psykers contacting and being corrupted by the ruinous powers is, after all, a very big part of the justification for Imperial fascism.

Hi James,

Funny you should mention it, but yes I got a game in this last weekend. As with my previous game before that I played with an IG influenced list. Things did not go as well as with the first attempt. The LatD won 2-0, defend the flag and they shall not pass, but in this case my opponent made a mistake in not pushing his war hounds further forward and striking at my blitz. In this game the LatD suffered badly from whirlwinds and land raiders stripping men and chimeras off me. With a fortunate first activation, terminators failing to destroy my basilisks, breaking and then not being able to get out of 15cm from the rest of my army and a rough rider engagement which saw them wipe out a tactical formation for the loss of one stand the game would have gone very differently.

With the splitting up of the list I hope to have something posted over Easter. I'm thinking of either allowing variant Defilers or a form of Land Transporter AA vehicle (Technical) for the cultist side with also Sabre platforms.

TT

The other suggestion that Colin had was to put the lists in the same way as Adeptus Mechanicus lists. One section covering all of the unit stats and the other containing 3-5 pages of army lists (depending on how many of the 5 lists above you want to include). 3 of the lists are already written so that just leaves splitting the current L&TD list into the remaining 2 lists.

Then need maybe a 1 page introduction explaining the focus and purpose of each list. Especially to help new players to avoid potential confusion.

Cheers

James

PS: And especially for E&C I have avoided using the word "core" list once!

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Here are my initial thoughts on how the list can be simplified.

View, digest, think about it and then comment

See new thread for list to save download problem.

ugh. not a fan of that flesharing site - not only does it want my email, i have to sign up in vietnamese. (may not be a problem for anyone else)

reading now. thoughts tomorrows.

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Why don't you just attach the file to the forum?

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