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Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Developmental]

 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:33 pm 
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That was GW’s approach to how lists were designed for EA. *shrug*

It’s not something that was chosen afterwards by the fans.

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 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:54 pm 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
That was GW’s approach to how lists were designed for EA. *shrug*

It’s not something that was chosen afterwards by the fans.


Sure. But it's been ages since Games Workshop supported this game. We're not bound by their design choices.


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 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:55 pm 
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Anyway... I'm afraid I managed to completely derail the topic. Sorry 'bout that.

So... Is any idea of a Chaos Titan list dead?


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 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:06 pm 
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f2k wrote:
I can see the point with theme lists. And they can be very interesting.

But they do present a big big problem: if you're not interested in a particular theme, then there's no army for you. Well... Make your own, then. Yeah... Sure... But given the glacial speed of getting new lists approved for official release, then...

I guess my point is that I feel the development of this game has been turned upside-down. You should always start with generic lists, then specialise them into themed lists with their own particular weaknesses and strengths.

Anyway... That is, of course, just my own preference. :-)



You need to remember that EA from the inception as a published game has had a heavy emphasis on list balance, a rarity for something with the name GW on it. This is demonstrably backed up with literally decades of recorded tournament data. Generic anythings become functionally impossible to balance in that manner as the numbers of permutations for combinations becomes effectively impossible to reason out and eliminate broken combinations and situational power gaming. Even with 20 years of recorded data, we still occasionally find insane whacko combinations that are so gamey and have been there for so long as to blow your mind (Dan's Thunder-F!ck list is a great example of that).

It's however not something that you can't still scratch your itch for other stuff either. JJ wrote wrote right in the EA book that if you want to change something, then do it (with the agreement from your opponent obviously). Related to this is exactly why we have things like fan-lists published by the community here for doing weird forces or combinations of things (see the Sarens Expanse Crusade list for a totally fun but never going to be balanced so don't be TFG when using Marines + Guard list for example. Likewise my own Raptors Legion Ambush list which is a mixed force of Marines and limited Guard contingent).

Likewise, way back when I was the Marine Army Champion here I also recognized that some people would still want something resembling a relatively cogent structure for a somewhat generic everything and the kitchen sink for beer and pretzel gaming so I crafted the literal Kitchen-Sink list for Astartes. I had hoped that it would have inspired something similar for other faction ACs to of done (especially Guard and Chaos) but sadly no one did. However that may be an option for you in a friendly environment.

Anyways, even on a dead list development thread, I feel we've gone rather off the rails here and such a discussion would be better served by Necroing one of the numerous threads we already have on this topic elsewhere instead of cocking this one up further.

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 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:20 pm 
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f2k wrote:
So... Is any idea of a Chaos Titan list dead?


I think conceptually it isn't dead but there's two glaring problems here that looking back from experience I can see that stand out:

1. is that AMTL actually cover the gambit of Legio, loyalist and traitor, very well already. Similarly, and in my opinion far more entertaining, is the EpicUK's Codex Adeptus Titanicus list (even though it probably needs some updating and balancing). Current AT18 game is a great example of how far you can go without resorting to 'but chaos'. (my Warp Runners often get fielded under other Legio because paint != rules :D )

2. It's not well defined what actually constitutes 'chaos titans' here in a functional ad thematic sense. Basically the list doesn't have a 'mission statement' that is actionable and can be used to judge the efficacy of any trial and suggestions. Basically 'Titans but with spikes and evil' isn't actually anything but window dressing [looks at the absolute disaster that Codex Chaos Knights was]

Because this is a dead list I'd say give it a mission statement in 2-3 clear actionable sentences here and lets see what comes out.

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 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:58 pm 
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As you might have gathered, I have some misgivings about the philosophy behind the current development of new lists and updating old lists with new units. But yes, you're right. This is better suited for another time and place. Again, sorry about derailing it. Me bad...

As for actionable sentences... Well...

Let me just quickly preface it by saying that while I appreciate the new Titanicus titans I have no interest in the 30K setting at all. So I'm approaching this from a 40K perspective.

So... Let me try. Feel free to slap me down. I haven't actually played this game much lately, nor have I ever fielded a full titan legion, so I'm just throwing out some quick thoughts without having tested them on the tabletop at all. At least, not yet, but I'm willing to give it a try.

1) Organized Chaos.

Special titans like the Banelord or Plaguelord should be part of the respective Chaos Legion lists. These are titans that have surrendered entirely to a particular aspect of Chaos and are no longer part of a larger titan legion.

Instead, the list should represent a more organised titan legion. A legion that is able to support and coordinate multiple titan maniples. Daemons might be bound into individual titans, but they haven't yet surrendered entirely to the madness of Chaos.

2) Same, but different.

The list should resemble the loyalist counterpart. A titan maniple supported by various units.

However, there are differences. Chaos, as I see it, is a bit more bloodthirsty and up-close-and.personal army. These are mad titans that likes the carnage they wreck on the battlefield. This should be reflected by the rules and upgrades available. Weapons are broadly similar, but with new options like tails, snarling battle heads, and tentacles. Furthermore, it should reflect a more chaotic approach to army building. Some titans might carry a Mark of Chaos and can function as icons for daemon summoning. Others might have hordes of slaves massing around their feets. I'm not going for something new and revolutionary, just a slightly different flavour (think Space Marines versus Chaos Marines - same, but different).

3) Dark Mechanicus.

This would also be an opportunity to update the general Mechanicus roster. I'm mindful of what you said about generalised armies being open to abuse, but I do think Mechanicus armies in general are badly outdated. As such, the army should contain a more updated unit selection, though always in a supporting role.

That's how I see a Chaos titan legion operating in the 40K setting. Daemonic and chaotic, certainly. But also disciplined enough to function as a coherent force. Chaos is a tool. A useful weapon. Something you might barter with, but not something you surrender to.


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 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:43 pm 
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Ok part 1 of 2

1.) I agree very much so. Things line a Plaguelord, for instance, should be the purview of a god specific list such as DeathGuard. Likewise the Khorne Renegades list should get Banelords or other stuff. Same with all those chaos specific alignment only weapons ala LatD. You're never going to make a manageable list that shoehorns every god specific thing possible and make it satisfying to the players.

2.) This is where you need to get more meat. So far those things mentioned are modeling choices, not really gameplay changes.
For instance "up close and personal" is just taking CCW then. You can already do that in AMTL. The fact that the weapons are "snarling battle heads, and tentacles" need something to make them distinct. How is the chaos giant buzz saw fundamentally on a gameplay level different from the Chainsword arm? I'd honestly stat them the same. We can take a centerline cannon / CCW head from the collector section of AMTL list for the heads. Even the old chaos tails are probably just the Carapace Multilasers Laser Burner in practical gameplay terms.

Quote:
it should reflect a more chaotic approach to army building

like how? I'm with you but what would be more chaotic? I assume you mean in the structure, not the units. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

Quote:
Mark of Chaos and can function as icons for daemon summoning

now this is something! I can dig that!

Quote:
Others might have hordes of slaves massing around their feets.

That's basically just taking Vraks list. Cheap low tech infantry with a Titan option. However that's diluting the theme a bit here if we did that plus adding in a potentially terribly unbalanced and unfun list to face off against. The major balancing act of lists composed of war engines, especially titans, is to limit their activation count. They're almost always going to be on the backfoot that way. Adding in a bunch of cheap feeder formations of crap units as cannon fodder allows you to screen your titans off in toto (remember the battle titans and infantry are pretty close to the same speeds) and then gain huge numbers of supporting fire dice rolls from the titan by using the cheap formations to initiate assaults/defend assults.

3. I'd suggest leveraging the Dark Mechanicum, Forgotten Forgeworlds list dev by Cygnus. No need to step on toes and theme. Hist approach is more focused on the forgeworld forces vs the titans though admittedly. Likewise the Mechnicum Explorator list by Norto is a more modern style ad mech + knights list.

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Last edited by jimmyzimms on Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:05 pm 
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OK Part 2 now

You're onto something really cool with the Titans+daemons idea. Allowing Summoning is super interesting idea. Titans and a limited daemon pool is worth checking out.

Now things I would think about that are not making this "Titans, but with spikes" would be ideas like these (off the top of my head)

-Dark Icon. Causes additional -1 for units within Ncm to rally. Taken as an Upgrade to battle titan.

-Alternate Weapons that are more focused on Disrupt attacks for shooting; FS for CCW.
So for instance stat the power whips as having FS. Example=>

Power Whip (Assault Weapon) EA TK(D4) FS

You get one great attack that may just take out your enemy, or then again, maybe not.

-Daemonic Hunger. Gains a +1 to to activate when initiating an assault. -1 for anything else. Gives a reason for a CCW heavy titan to exist. Taken as upgrade to battle titan. Stops the artillery titan style of play.

-Blasphemous Engine. Allows a Titan to 'push their reactor' for additional speed (+5cm) but takes a roll for D3-1 hits

I'd try and limit the supporting units to things that warpsmiths may like to drag along, again, to distinguish them from the AMTL style. So instead of Skitarii and Robots as screening formations like AMTL, flip the scrip and put in things like the infiltrating Defiler pack into the list. Keep the focus on gameplay of CLOSE AND KILL KILL KILL over plodding fire platforms with their sacrificial feeder formations. Instead you have formations designed to rapidly close and disrupt the enemy plans while they deal with them you're advancing.

There's then instead the totally different take on things that you can do with is more a mixed Titans + Knights list (which AMTL is most assuredly NOT). Take a look at the EpicUK Adeptus Titanicus list for what I am talking about.

Anyways hopefully this is some food for thought for you!

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 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:19 pm 
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Thank you for the well thought out reply.

I've been giving it a bit more thought. But so far... Well... Honestly, it's just some ideas I'm toying with. Not sure what the process for doing a list is or how welcome it would be to start churning out a list with statlines at this early point in time?

jimmyzimms wrote:
2.) This is where you need to get more meat. So far those things mentioned are modeling choices, not really gameplay changes.
For instance "up close and personal" is just taking CCW then. You can already do that in AMTL. The fact that the weapons are "snarling battle heads, and tentacles" need something to make them distinct. How is the chaos giant buzz saw fundamentally on a gameplay level different from the Chainsword arm? I'd honestly stat them the same. We can take a centerline cannon / CCW head from the collector section of AMTL list for the heads. Even the old chaos tails are probably just the Carapace Multilasers Laser Burner in practical gameplay terms.


A very good point.

What I was thinking comes in two different ways:

1) Limit the large long-ranged weapons (like Vulcano Cannon) a bit, either by outright limiting it in list building or by upping the cost slightly.

2) Make mid- to close-range weapons a bit more attractive. Either through tweaking the statline a bit or by lowering the point costs slightly.

I was hoping to keep a fair few of the standard weapons (after all, even the Dark Mechanicus would see the idea of standardized production) but also opening up for some slightly tweaked stats.

Going way back the 40K 2. edition, you had (for example) the Autocannon vs. the Reaper Autocannon. Or the rapid firing, but unstable, plasma weapons. So Slw could be removed, but every to-hit roll of 6 would inflict a critical hit on the titan.

In addition, there could be the option for having the titan be possed by a greater demon, thus opening the option to pick a demon weapon.

Finally, it could be tied to marks. The Mark of Khorne, for example, grants the titan the Fury of Khorne rule (and the ability to summon Khorne demons). The titan MUST take at least one close combat weapon, but it's speed is increased by +5 cm.

The idea is to not force players to play in a certain way (Khorne cares not how the blood flow, or whose blood it is, as long as it flows), but to give them a slight nudge by making some combos a bit more obvious than others. A huge lumbering titan advancing slowly while tearing the opponent apart with a torrent of shoots also pleases Khorne, but with extra speed and a close combat weapon... Well... Khorne smiles on you when you tear an opposing titan apart in glorious close combat.

Quote:
like how? I'm with you but what would be more chaotic? I assume you mean in the structure, not the units. Please correct me if I am wrong here.


Completely correct. :)

An Imperial titan legion is a very rigidly structure army with titans, support units, and naval assets.

I was thinking an army constructed more like a chaos warband of old, with a single warlord and his lesser followers. Titans are still the core units (the warlords), but a lot of other units are upgrades for each titan, rather than units in their own right (the followers). So you might have a Warlord with a group of Dark Skitarii and a couple of summoned demon following it around, all in a single large unit.

That being said though... Having though a bit more about it, I'm honestly not sure it's a good idea as it might reduce the army to too few activations and a few large blobs of intermixed units.

One idea I was toying with was to use it to upgrade the titans stats, rather than as actual units.

For example:

Techno-slaves: CH - No weapons - Leader. This represents Tech-priests and their slave-servitors attending the titan, helping restore void shields, realigning sensors, repairing damage, etc.

Techo-cultists: CH - EA(+1), FS. This represents a horde of adoring cultists clustering around the titan's feet, all trying to catch the attention of the demon within, and intercepting any attempt at charging the titan.

That follows the structure from the current list a bit more, with Legates, Sacred Icons, etc.

Quote:
now this is something! I can dig that!


Cool, because i really like that idea. :)

Quote:
That's basically just taking Vraks list. Cheap low tech infantry with a Titan option. However that's diluting the theme a bit here if we did that plus adding in a potentially terribly unbalanced and unfun list to face off against. The major balancing act of lists composed of war engines, especially titans, is to limit their activation count. They're almost always going to be on the backfoot that way. Adding in a bunch of cheap feeder formations of crap units as cannon fodder allows you to screen your titans off in toto (remember the battle titans and infantry are pretty close to the same speeds) and then gain huge numbers of supporting fire dice rolls from the titan by using the cheap formations to initiate assaults/defend assults.


Point well taken. It's something to think about for sure, but as mentioned above, I was originally envisioning it all bound together in one intermixed unit. That is, it's not a titan list with cheap infantry to sit tight on an objective. It's a titan list with some cheap infantry that has to stay in coherency with the titan, effectively protecting it against close combat attacks, but at the same time hobbling it as it will have to manoeuvre around on the battlefield with a lot of annoying insects clustering around it's feet.

But as I've already admitted, it might not be the best idea, making the list too limited on activations, and there might be better ways of doing it. It will have to be thoroughly tested for sure.

Quote:
3. I'd suggest leveraging the Dark Mechanicum, Forgotten Forgeworlds list dev by Cygnus. No need to step on toes and theme. Hist approach is more focused on the forgeworld forces vs the titans though admittedly. Likewise the Mechnicum Explorator list by Norto is a more modern style ad mech + knights list.


I was certainly hoping to be able to find inspiration from other lists. But on the other hand, I don't want to just copy the work done by others.

Again, thank you for your input. Also for the second part - some really good ideas there.


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 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:58 pm 
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ahhhh that's very different with Titans + infanty in one formation.
Something like an ablative armour. We did a similar thing for AVs in the Penal legion.

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