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What should we do with Helltalons
Poll ended at Thu May 31, 2012 9:12 am
1 As they are now 10%  10%  [ 2 ]
2 Drop AA shot to 30cm 19%  19%  [ 4 ]
3 Drop AA shot to 30cm and add IC to bombs 24%  24%  [ 5 ]
4 Change their status to Bomber 24%  24%  [ 5 ]
5 Change their status to Bomber and add IC to bombs 24%  24%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 21

Helltalons

 Post subject: Re: Helltalons
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 3:02 pm 
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But a Lascannon HAS 45cm range.
The Twin Lascannons on the Marauder are even inferior to the one son the Hell Talon if you believe real life. Why?
The Twin Lascannons of the Marauder are placed in a prow gondola while the Hell Talon's ones are in a fixed position so the pilot can aim with the whole aircraft.
This is a big advantage as WWI proved. First two-seaters shot at each other with a rear gunner who not only has to fight against the wind but also has to compensate for the aircrafts movement the pilot is controlling. Then someone invented a means to shoot straight through the porpeller disc so the pilot could aim with the whole aircraft without the need of a second crew member. Thus the Fokker Plague was born.

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 Post subject: Re: Helltalons
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 3:33 pm 
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I love the 45cm range, but I think you're over-analyzing this Blacklegion. With E:A's variable range scale, the simple explanation here is that the chances of a fast-moving aircraft spotting anything at 45cm at which to shoot are negligible. Sure it has the range, but there are more factors to be considered in the stat than just how far the round/beam can go. Coming up with a special rule here when a simple stat reduction would do seems unnecessarily complicated.

How valid is the concern over multiple options for unit choices in the list when we're talking about one of the most flexible lists in the game? If we take that to its logical conclusion, we'd end up with a vary different list.

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 Post subject: Re: Helltalons
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:04 pm 
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I really don't think we need to consider a special rule, or WWI

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 Post subject: Re: Helltalons
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:23 pm 
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If you decrease the Hell Talon's Twin Lascannon to 30cm then drop the range on the Marauder too.
If you want to drop the range on the Hell Talon only then change the name to uhm...Short-barelled Twin Lascannon (Twin Lascannon Carbine?) or so.

BTW the 2 Reaper Autocannons on the Hell Blade should be either 30cm range (same weapon as Chaos Terminators) or change the name.

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 Post subject: Re: Helltalons
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:45 pm 
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I don't play chaos so I have little insight into any balance issues, but I'd definetly keep it as a FB. That's how they're described!

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 Post subject: Re: Helltalons
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 12:54 am 
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for what it's worth, i think the marauders lascannon should also drop in range, but thats not as pressing a concern as it is on the helltalon, nor is it within the remit of this discussion

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 Post subject: Re: Helltalons
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:17 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:
If you decrease the Hell Talon's Twin Lascannon to 30cm then drop the range on the Marauder too.
If you want to drop the range on the Hell Talon only then change the name to uhm...Short-barelled Twin Lascannon (Twin Lascannon Carbine?) or so.

BTW the 2 Reaper Autocannons on the Hell Blade should be either 30cm range (same weapon as Chaos Terminators) or change the name.

I'd agree with the hellblade increased range, as mentioned here+elsewhere there are myriad reasons (+precedents) for marauder+helltalon las being different

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 Post subject: Re: Helltalons
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:18 am 
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Aren't there about a million precedents for Aircraft weaponry having 15cm shorter range than its ground-based counterparts? So a Reaper AC should be 15cm.

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 Post subject: Re: Helltalons
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 10:10 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Aren't there about a million precedents for Aircraft weaponry having 15cm shorter range than its ground-based counterparts? So a Reaper AC should be 15cm.

Yes, however 99% of those precedents involve all round fire arcs.

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 Post subject: Re: Helltalons
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 2:34 pm 
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Actually, it's not that clear-cut. The Lightning has 30cm Lascannons as does the Lightning Strike, and the Lightning's Long-Barrelled Autocannon is only 45cm (though there's some game balance issues there). The Marauder Destroyer has 30cm Twin Autocannons and 15cm Assault Cannons (though the latter have a half arc). The Thunderhawk has two of its Heavy Bolters (though they have half-arcs). The Inquisitorial Gun-Cutter has a 15cm Assault Cannnon and 30cm Autocannons. The Marauder Colossus has 15cm Heavy Bolters. The Harbinger has 15cm Reapers. The Barracuda has a 30cm Ion Cannon, as does the Tigershark.

I admit, there's a lot of counter-examples, but it's quite messy.

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 Post subject: Re: Helltalons
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 3:07 pm 
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You listed a lot of experimental units there.

That's not so say that reducing range for game balance isn't unreasonable, but referencing the Marauder Colossus isn't persuasive.

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 Post subject: Re: Helltalons
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Lascannons on the Lightning are named Wingtip Lascannons. Different name = different stats.

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 Post subject: Re: Helltalons
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:41 am 
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With the 2 sides range drop/bomber pretty even we'll try keeping the price the same but dropping AA range+adding IC to bombs for now

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