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Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
Steve54
 Post subject: Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:27 am 
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Virtually none of which are relevant in the context of the comparison

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:32 am 
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The context of the comparison is comparing the cost and stats of a hydra to the cost and stats of an Obliterator... you can't just pick one aspect of a unit (its AA fire) and remove all other contextual factors, and say "one extra shot is fine because it costs 25pts more"... because those 25pts give a lot more than one single boost.

You asked why people say Obliterators are overpowered, and I answered with my opinion: When you take their full abilities and context in the army list into account, they cost too few points.


You cannot say that context does not matter.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:37 am 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 31 Jul. 2009, 11:09 )

The vast majority of complaints about the oblits were concerning their inclusion with terminators - a fearless RA flak unit on the opponents baseline.

I don't understand how 3x AA5+ at 45cm is overpowered?  1 shot more than a hydra for more points

I thought it was because it was fearless, could easily 'hide' in infantry formations and you could have enough to create no go zones for aircraft?
The terminator thing was because they were better than termies after the formation nearly inevitablily breaks.

0-1 for retinues and none for terminators would solve this?

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Steve54
 Post subject: Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:40 am 
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If you address the whole argument rather than attacking one sentence it might be more helpful.

- very few people complained about the AA of the oblit. 3 x 5+ is not remarkably good compared to other units. There is a big negative in that it slows the formation to 15 - hydras, hunters, flakwagons all improve their formation and add AA.

- suppression was one complaint by those who did see it as an issue - how is it more difficult to suppress than a hydra in a mech formation? whic hn obody complains about and improves its formation. Orks+IG can also cheaply hide AA in cover BL can do it expensively.

- the main complaint was with terminators - why I would restrict it to one

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:44 am 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 31 Jul. 2009, 11:17 )

By 200+ games with BL then the MW Feral was comparable to a warhound

I think playing an army massively does bring in its own skews. I've played with or against siegers now over a 100 times so its often hard for me to see how people have problems (with the mods added and even without sometimes) against them. I can even wipe them out with certain 'all comers' marines tourny builds (not including BL who crucify them). So having played with or against bl 200+ times you may have the same problems of relating to others pet hates and problems :) I certainly can't get how having better FF and two better guns than the comparable Warhound weapons (inferno and Vulcan) makes them equal, bar perhaps the effect of strategy rating 5 over 4.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:45 am 
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The main difference with the list is that it now has to be played as a mechanised force - the only way to have effective AA is with the stalker which, in turn, forces you to take rhinos for the retinues or the AA is quickly shot away. This present 2 problems 1- retinues now end up very expensive - 390 including a pact and secondly it is basically a new list rather than an update. If you want to use the desecrator for flak or the stalker alone then you have to buy dreads or defilers to act as shields which gets very expensive.


This isn't I think entirely true. With the hellfighters and strat 4 the BL have excellent AA
in the air. The same list can be played, the biggest change is you can no longer so easily max out on WE.
But otherwise, yes without figthers you are looking at being mechanised. Again its no bad thing, but it is as Steve says, a significantly different list.

Obliterators - the opposite is true for these as they are not really an option now. Spending points on a terminator formation is always a huge risk for BL and oblits are no longer even a decent choice. The only reason to take them is as a fearless unit - but then a Prince is cheaper. With any other formation they are even worse as, as stated above, retinues now have to take rhinos. I really don't understand how removing their role and reducing their stats results in a points increase.

I'm with Steve on the oblit changes. Yes they are irritating as hell (and certainly I don't agree as to the viability of terminator attacks) as fearless infantry AA, but it does give an alternative to a mechanised approach. Just making them 0-1 could have enough effect (with or without price changes).

Defilers
Again I agree that whereas before they had a reason to be in there (as a thinly credible way to get artillery, normally singularly attached to a decimator) now it has not enough of one to be taken. Nothing nessecerily wrong with the unit, but space marine armies don't get on very well with such AV upgrades.

Ferals
I think we disagree here as I think they are great. I manage to use 30cm weapons quite well on slower units, not to mention warhounds (where I have used infernos a lot). It isn't inferior to a warhound (indeed can put out better AT fire when doubling than an Imerpial hound - say 3 AV's under the template - which is entirely credible - 3 6+ and 4 4+ to hit, verses a fully changed warhound getting 2 x MW3+, 4 x 6+, or just 4x6+ on the off turn) but comparable and I'd be happy seeing the non MW version going to 275 (to stop 4 being taken like the imperial marine warhound).

On a similar note I think the IC should go from the decimator and the cost drop on that as well.

Raptors - don't really think the points change was necessary. I think they would be better off at 160 for 4 35 for extras

I'd rather see the 0-1 restriction gone and their FF going to 5+. Cost can stay at 35 or maybe even drop to 30. Currently they are better than bikes point for point. The choice should be a bit more than simple cost.

Ravager - could even drop to 625, or add D3 to the main weapon

It could even do both :)

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:12 pm 
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Firefight is not in my experience an option due to low effective formation size - anything a feral can firefight, it can shoot better.


Yes, though its good to have a couple of void shields and 5 5+ attacks to clear small formations off objectives - you effectively get two chances, the attacks and then the dice roll off. Can even use it on large non FF formations in a 'clip' attack, like strung out infantry formations that the 3bp is less effective against.

Yes the death storm is better than the VMB, but twinning that with the Hellmouth gives substantially less AT firepower overall in real terms.

Rememeber the AT of 3BP was increased to 5+, its not 6+ base any more.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:24 pm 
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Rememeber the AT of 3BP was increased to 5+, its not 6+ base any more.


Indeed, making the Hellmouth better than the Plasma Blastgun too, IMO, and certainly better than the Inferno Gun.

Saying that the Feral is non-optimised because its guns target different types of formation doesn't work in comparison to Warhounds, because their Standard Configuration guns are also non-optimised.

anything a feral can firefight, it can shoot better.
It's good at lending Supporting Fire though, what with being a fast hull in a low initiative army list.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:36 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 31 Jul. 2009, 11:40 )

- very few people complained about the AA of the oblit.

Agreed. Most complained simply that the unit was too good in general, in a holistic sense; Great AA was just the icing on the cake.

- suppression was one complaint by those who did see it as an issue - how is it more difficult to suppress than a hydra in a mech formation?

Can't say as I think Suppression was ever much of an issue, only the overall power of the unit.

- the main complaint was with terminators
And the Blitz guard infantry formation BTS.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:37 pm 
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I should add that my desire to change the Obliterators was mainly just because I didn't think they operated the way the unit should, rather than necessarily a game-balance issue. The Obliterators should never have been shoehorned into an AA role in my opinion.

The other thing is that they shouldn't have had the price increase with the AA-less stats. So 75 points. I really should have updated the original file. Sorry.
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