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Summoning
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Summoning
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:38 pm 
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I don't think summoning is a major issue; If lesser Daemons are overpowered, it's not by much.

I do reckon that it'd be interesting to see seperate formations of daemons (As was proposed in the first few posts of this thread) , as currently they're only used as meat shields.

Meat shields lack character, IMHO, whilst doubling up the field, summoning a Daemon formation, and watching the beasts from the aether tear an enemy formation apart is kinda cool.




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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Summoning
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:15 am 
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(Ginger @ Mar. 04 2008,04:41)
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Regarding the "meat shield" effect, this will always be true by the nature of the unit and summoning. Consequently you won't fix it easily.

As long as the daemons are summoned as part of the formation they will be used as a meat shield in the BL army. As noted, in the LatD army they are not used that way simply because of the cost of the units and formations

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Summoning
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:17 am 
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(Magarch @ Mar. 04 2008,05:12)
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I'm a bit uneasy with these random numbers. It makes me feel we throw more dices in a game where randomness already play a good part. That just adds more randomness for the chaos player. Is it really necessary ?

Necessary? No. Fun? I think so. I liked the old system because of the spectacular randomness of it. It felt very chaotic.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Summoning
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:18 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 04 2008,05:45)
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What if summoning points were fixed, so instead of icons (or whatever) providing 1D3 summon points, they provided a set '2' points.

Sounds a bit dull. I liked the random nature of it though so I am biased.

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Magarch
 Post subject: Summoning
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:21 am 
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Trouble is, people are used to the current system and most of them don't want to leave their toy as long as it's working for them. For example, my chaos opponent doesn't want to hear anything about remaking the rules of daemon summoning. He finds them good like this - but then of course, they are at his advantage and he got his own style using them.

The sacrifice system from pixelgeek sounds interesting to me, though. I guess these upgrades are just some markers for a formation and not infantry units just bought to "fuel" the daemon summoning. I'd rather like to see daemons in formations of their own as I already said on this topic, but then pixelgeek's first system would be a good alternative to my eyes.
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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Summoning
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:24 am 
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 04 2008,07:06)
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One possibility that would mix the two systems would be a character that allows summoning and a pool of sacrifices.  Say, 50 points for a summoner that can use sacrifices, then 100 points per sacrifice in a common pool that any summoner can access.  That would simplify the system but still allow a reasonable certainty that the sacrifices wouldn't go to waste.  It also follows more closely a mechanic that seems to be working - Nid Spawning, with summoner=synapse and sacrifices=mycetic spores.

I rather like that idea.

For the record, I don't think that the daemons are unbalanced. I think that the system to enable you to summon them is overly complex and no fun.

I liked the Sacrifice system and I like to be able to build an army without something as deterministic as a pool of daemons

I also don't like my opponent (and myself) knowing with absolutely certainty how many daemons I have.

Neal is correct that we now have a relatively good idea of how much a daemon costs so we should be able to do some math and price out a system whereby we can calculate the average number of points generated by a summoner each turn and then price the sacrifices for it.

If we do that do we still want the enhanced summoning ability to boost the summoning rolls?

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Magarch
 Post subject: Summoning
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:40 am 
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I'd rather like sacrifices as upgrades for formations - so that only them can use these and that the "cost" of the daemons are finally included with their price.

100 points for d3 lesser daemons sounds a bit high to me. This is random, after all. I would rather set at 75 or 50 points. I would see using 2 sacrifices for summoning a greater daemon and 1 sacrifice to maintain the daemons one more turn. Easy, simple and tactical (you have to use the sacrifices at the right time).

Making a cost for a summoning character isn't especially needed. For Chaos Legion, the chaos sorcerer is designed for this job. That would be even easier if the free character was removed and that you have to pay for the chaos lord and the sorcerer lord. Or making the sorcerer an upgrade for the chaos lord.

I would go even further by making a clear difference between the two, removing Leader and Commander from the sorcerer and making it purely a support character able to summon daemons for the formation.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Summoning
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:11 am 
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Steve's BL army contained something like two or three  retinues and a chosen, three Ferals and three other WE type things. However, it is all a bit of a blur and too painfull *sniff* :p

Back on topic, Steve did have a daemon pool of 10 daemons from memory, which promptly increased by throwing a 6! However, they only got to see action as a "meat shield" as my army was cut to ribbons by firepower and failed activations etc

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Steve54
 Post subject: Summoning
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:06 pm 
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My list at FSA -

All Nurgle
Retinue +pact, Obliterator, Prince
Retinue +pact, Obliterator
Retinue +pact, rhinos
Forlorn hope +rhinos
7 Raptors +pact
4 Chosen +obliterator, pact
Feral
Feral
Feral
9 lesser daemons

In previous lists the foot slogging retinues, and sometimes the chosen, have had Icon bearers but I couldn't afford them this time as I had swapped a forlorn hope for a retinue and needed to save points elsewhere. Given that I could afford them the only unit I wouldn't prefer to equip with an Icon bearer is the mechanised retinue.
Sometimes in smaller games and nearly always in bigger games the retinues get Icon bearers so they can be positioned for assaults and have a daemon shield if I lose the initiative, and the Chosen and Raptors as they, due to their role, take lots of BMs and casualties so I want to keep unit size up.

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Soren
 Post subject: Summoning
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:16 pm 
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The Feral count reminds me on the thing we had with the Marines while they took 4 Warhounds. Most lists here take 3 Ferals, but nobody cries about them, despite the MW templates etc?

I am wondering to be honest.

Edit: Shifting the question to proper thread




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Ginger
 Post subject: Summoning
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:11 pm 
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This sacrifice / summoning idea sounds intriguing, can we expand further on it. As far as I can see, this is proposed as a means of bringing on the GD, in a manner much like the Eldar Avatar - you sack a character based unit and replace it with the GD for the rest of the turn when it disappears back into the aether. Sounds pretty cool to me! :blues:

Obviously you need to pay for the beast up front, and have to calculate when to bring him on. If you pay for (and sack) more than one character, you get to do it again, so the costs for both units need to be considered. If you separate out the Chaos lord from each formation as a separate cost, this would also serve to help adjust the costs etc :) Working on cost for a second, the simplest way is actually to apply the whole cost to the Character, giving the GD for free, so perhaps the Chaos Lord is ~100 to ~125 points each (giving a WE effect of up to 375 points over three turns) and also providing the dilema of when to sack them!

IMO, it would be simpler if the Daemon focus is not sufficient to keep the GD in play, though if you really wanted to go mad, you could require another sacrifice on the relevant altar to keep the GD happy etc :p ?:D

This is then completely separate from LDs and their summoning (which is effectively the case now anyway). You might even consider adapting this mechanism a tad by granting some form of bonus to LDs in close proximity (say 30 cms?), reducing their stats a bit to bring them in line. Eg they get an armour bonus +1 when their lord is nearby etc.

On a separate tack, you could also use this mechanism to give the relevant followers a +1 initiative bonus if they are within range (30cms?) which would also do several things:-
- It would encourage people to focus on the cult rather than the "undivided" formations
- It would reduce the power of Ferals etc a bit, possibly removing the need for cost/stats changes

Is that what you had in mind??




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