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Air-Ground Operations

 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:02 pm 
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Is it just me or does the ground attack page make very little sense, I've discussed this with 3 other players and they all agree with my reading of what it should say. but I'll see what you think.

1) It's says that you must be at height 1 to strafe an enemy position, this of course should be 1 level higher than the enemy ground target as they can be on a hill. But even this is inadequate in the situation that the enemy ground target is on a hill or mesa. So for my improved version (which I think everyone on Tac Command agreed with) which covers a lot of situations.



Target 1. Hive wall, my guess is you need to be any height up to +1 of the top of the wall, so if the wall is height 4 you have to be 1,2,3,4 or 5. If you were coming from the other direction only 5 would do.

Target 2. Target on the top of a wall or on a cliff edge. you would have to be the same height, 1 higher or 1 less.

Target 3. a target which is on a hill or mesa, This is the most common situation, there is no way to deal with LOS between a plane and a target as altitude is just dealt with by the dial, I also feel that the difference in height between 2 levels is a lot. Therefore I would say it is impossible to shoot at the target from below as the mesa gets in the way. In this case I would say from the same height or one higher.

Target 4. A blimp tethered to the ground. This one is easy, deal with is the same way as a plane, 1 higher or lower allowed.

2) Now for the second problem, AA firing back, can AA get the depression to fire level or lower. My general feeling is that if a plane can fire on the AA it should be able to fire back, I know this is not always true in real life, but seeing as they have not given negative values on the AA it keeps things simple.

3) The next problem I see is in the writing of the Strafing and Bombing section, it is really unclear on how fighters deal with bombing, and also whether bombers can drop bombs while straffing. It says that most Bombers don't strafe, but on the stat card of the Marauder Bomber does it say that strafing is not possible. The general feeling amongst people I knew was that any weapon declared as a bomb should only be able to do bombing runs whether it is on a Fighta or a Bomber, and any weapon that is not a bomb or an air attack weapon is able to strafe. I know this is not really what the rules say, but it is the only way to make it make sense.





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 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:22 pm 
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(mageboltrat @ Jan. 21 2007,18:02)
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Target 1. Hive wall, my guess is you need to be any height up to +1 of the top of the wall, so if the wall is height 4 you have to be 1,2,3,4 or 5. If you were coming from the other direction only 5 would do.


I will agree here. ?You are shooting a cliff. you should be able to do it from any height it is, plus one


Target 2. Target on the top of a wall or on a cliff edge. you would have to be the same height, 1 higher or 1 less.


Again I agree, ?Though it might be best to say same height or +1 altitde. ?Since each height band is quite large (or so I think), it might be quite hard to get the right deflection to hit the target (if that makes sense)


Target 3. a target which is on a hill or mesa, This is the most common situation, there is no way to deal with LOS between a plane and a target as altitude is just dealt with by the dial, I also feel that the difference in height between 2 levels is a lot. Therefore I would say it is impossible to shoot at the target from below as the mesa gets in the way. In this case I would say from the same height or one higher.


Again I agree. ?It is just a ground traget on a hill


Target 4. A blimp tethered to the ground. This one is easy, deal with is the same way as a plane, 1 higher or lower allowed.


Why am I always agreeing? ?:D ? I, too, would treat it as a hovering aircraft


2) Now for the second problem, AA firing back, can AA get the depression to fire level or lower. My general feeling is that if a plane can fire on the AA it should be able to fire back, I know this is not always true in real life, but seeing as they have not given negative values on the AA it keeps things simple.


I would say that dedicate AAA would be able to get the depression to shoot back. ?They are designed to attack all incoming enemies. ? AAA tanks don't have the depression to be able to shoot down that well, so they should only be able to shoot back at their altitude and above.


3) The next problem I see is in the writing of the Strafing and Bombing section, it is really unclear on how fighters deal with bombing, and also whether bombers can drop bombs while straffing. It says that most Bombers don't strafe, but on the stat card of the Marauder Bomber does it say that strafing is not possible. The general feeling amongst people I knew was that any weapon declared as a bomb should only be able to do bombing runs whether it is on a Fighta or a Bomber, and any weapon that is not a bomb or an air attack weapon is able to strafe. I know this is not really what the rules say, but it is the only way to make it make sense.

I've played it that you can drop bombs as part of a stafeing run, but it hits as a normal weapon ie on a 5+. ?Rather than using the bombing to hit table and bomb creep rules.

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 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:29 pm 
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(mageboltrat @ Jan. 21 2007,18:02)
QUOTE


3) The next problem I see is in the writing of the Strafing and Bombing section, it is really unclear on how fighters deal with bombing, and also whether bombers can drop bombs while straffing. It says that most Bombers don't strafe, but on the stat card of the Marauder Bomber does it say that strafing is not possible. The general feeling amongst people I knew was that any weapon declared as a bomb should only be able to do bombing runs whether it is on a Fighta or a Bomber, and any weapon that is not a bomb or an air attack weapon is able to strafe. I know this is not really what the rules say, but it is the only way to make it make sense.


I've played it that you can drop bombs as part of a stafeing run, but it hits as a normal weapon ie on a 5+.  Rather than using the bombing to hit table and bomb creep rules.


This makes some sense. So only bombers can drop from higher up? I don't know if I like the fact Fighta Bombaz can't make bombing runs but a thunderhawk transporter can.

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 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:33 pm 
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Er... and do wing bombs count as bombs?

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 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:42 pm 
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Well, I don't have the game or plan on getting it ... But generally all what you say makes sense ... And external bomb loads, should be able to be dropped on a strafing run ... I I've seen it done ... :;):

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 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:09 am 
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Generally, I agree with your four targetting diagrams.

If pushed, I would probably play that ground defemces can fire at targets up to one level below their current position... But there is certainly a case for the lowest being one level higher than their current altitude.

For cleanliness, I would probably say that anything labelled as 'bomb' could only be used in conventional bombing runs, and anything else can only be used as a strafe. However, I would not limit which aircraft can perform these, and allow bombers to strafe if they really want to. Of course, they wont be as good at it, since most of their weapons will be bombs...

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 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:54 pm 
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(mageboltrat @ Jan. 21 2007,18:29)
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This makes some sense. So only bombers can drop from higher up?

Yes, only Bomber class aircraft can drop from altitude. Fighters can only use their bombs in strafing runs.

The advantage to dropping from altitude is that at altitude 3 or 4 they are more accurate that dropping in a strafing run. You can also avoid low level AA fire (such as Hydras) by dropping from altitude.

Also, bomb creep affects Bombing Runs so there is a chance you can take out more than just the target. When dropping bombs during a strafing run there is no bomb creep - that rule is part of the Bombing Run section and only applies to altitude drops.

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 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:05 pm 
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(Spack @ Jan. 23 2007,11:54)
QUOTE

(mageboltrat @ Jan. 21 2007,18:29)
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This makes some sense. So only bombers can drop from higher up?

Yes, only Bomber class aircraft can drop from altitude. Fighters can only use their bombs in strafing runs.

We played it this way today and it works fine. BTW can anyone explain to me why the defenders only get 75% of the points on a bombing run mission, we have played it with 75% and 100% and the 100% game worked better.





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 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:12 pm 
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Have you thought of submitting your revised ground assault rules to Warwick Kinrade, over at Forgeworld?


Gary





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 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:24 am 
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Not yet, I want to get things ironed out a bit first. Also I'm trying to work out the intent of the original rules. btw how many hits do hydras and manticores have I can't find it in the rules and it came up yesterday we gave it 2 hits.

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 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:22 am 
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(mageboltrat @ Jan. 24 2007,09:24)
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Not yet, I want to get things ironed out a bit first. Also I'm trying to work out the intent of the original rules. btw how many hits do hydras and manticores have I can't find it in the rules and it came up yesterday we gave it 2 hits.

Page 14, table in the top right - Hydras and Manticores are listed with 2 hits.

The hit value should really have been included in the data sheets, and the summary table at the bottom of page 15. Also I'm assuming that all other AA weapons will be 2 hits too, but they're not actually in the list.





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 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:48 am 
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I would have thought that sabres would be one hit.

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 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:55 pm 
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I've emailed FW to ask for confirmation on what the values should be. I agree that the Sabre should be 1 using common sense, but without a definite answer from FW I can see Navy players claiming that they are 2 as the Hydra/Manticore are.

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 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:14 pm 
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So Manticores are AAA and FA ?! Now ... ???  They can shoot at Aircraft AND fire as Artillery ?  Now ... If so works for me ! :D

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 Post subject: Air-Ground Operations
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:38 pm 
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(Legion 4 @ Jan. 24 2007,19:14)
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So Manticores are AAA and FA ?! Now ... ??? ?They can shoot at Aircraft AND fire as Artillery ? ?Now ... If so works for me ! :D

AI doesn't have "artillery" - just AA.

In 40k, Manticores are still just artillery, and cannot shoot at flyers.

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