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Commissars poll and review
No change 12%  12%  [ 5 ]
Fixed by points, 1/X pts (specify X below) 81%  81%  [ 35 ]
Random by points, 1dD/X pts (specify D and X below) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Fixed by activations, 1/X act (specify X below) 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Random by activations, 1dD/X act (specify D and X below) 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 43

Commissars poll and review
Dave
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:34 pm 
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I thought I'd break this off from the main IG review thread for organization reasons and so we can show we have a consensus on the issue.  Depending on how well this goes I'll start some others.  My hope is that we can see a IG overhaul in the form of a SG magazine article by the end of the year.  What do you guys think, too much wishful thinking?

My vote is for fixed by points at 1/450 pts.

I also suggest that the following sentence in Special Rule 6.4.1 Commissars be changed from:

Any further Commissars may be attached to any other formations.

To:

Any further Commissars may be attached to any other formations with the exception of Imperial Nacy Aircraft, Titan Legion BattleGroups, and Orbital Support formations.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:51 pm 
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Ive gone for option2- simple and easy to balance.  I would possibly move the points to 1/500 to give 6 at 3000 pts which seems about right.

Also as to the wording- how about ".... with the exception of allied arms (e.g. Imperial Navy or Titan Legion formaions)" to cover future possible ally options.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:56 pm 
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I like Option 2 the best. Fixed at 500 points would make the math easier, but 450 would be fine, too. Also, would partials be considered? Meaning, for each 500 points and parts thereof, so that if you played a 2700 point game you would get 6, not 5, Commissars.




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Dave
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:08 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ May 08 2007,12:56)
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I like Option 2 the best. Fixed at 500 points would make the math easier, but 450 would be fine, too. Also, would partials be considered? Meaning, for each 500 points and parts thereof, so that if you played a 2700 point game you would get 6, not 5, Commissars.

My idea was that every X amount of points would get you a Commissar, so no partials.  2700 would get you 5 Commissars at 1/500 pts.

That's why I thought of going for 1/450 pts as it would play to all those Epic lists that are based at 1800, 2700, 3600 and etc.

J0k3r, out of curiosity where are the Titans and Aircraft referred to as allied arms?  There's a reference to allied forces is section 6.  Again this is apples to apples but you're right, I just think lingo should be consistent however.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:32 pm 
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@ dave- Hmm, your right.  I thought there was a reference to "allied arms" specifically, but in fact they are only referred to as being used in "support of" IG in both sections 5 and 6.  Must be getting my editions mixed up.  It  still maybe useful to have a general name for these things - How about "supporting arms"?  Or "imperial navy and titan legions" would cover it anyway.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:46 pm 
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I voted random by number of activations. ?While this is less convenient for the player it is a little more realistic IMHO.

I have a problem with fixed per number of points because you then have game size (non-IG players will keep game size, points per side, lower than the break-points) and army selection (strive for 1 Commissar per company) influenced by the number of commissars that the IG player will get. ?

If you fix it by the number of points, like 1 per 500 points, you are going to see army selection skewed to where players are going to pick companies at or over 500 points with Upgrades thrown in to fill in the remaining points. ?Why buy infantry and mech. infantry companies, at 250 and 400 points respectively, when that means you will have to split the 1 commissar per 500 points between two companies. ?If you pick only companies that are 500 points or more then you will make sure that you get 1 per company. ?Why pick support formations that could use Commissars when you can buy upgrades that will benefit from the company commissar.

Granted, any points spent on Imp. Navy aircraft and titans will help put more commissars into the companies, but you are still going to see a skewing towards expensive companies and away from support formations.

I suggest 1D3 Commissar per company, any rolled for that company must be assigned to that company and its support formations. ?Support formations must be "assigned" before the roll to prevent players from reorganizing based upon dice rolls. ?I like it because it is simple to use and minimizes min-maxing of the army for the Commissars.




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Dave
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 7:44 pm 
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(J0k3r @ May 08 2007,13:32)
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@ dave- Hmm, your right.  I thought there was a reference to "allied arms" specifically, but in fact they are only referred to as being used in "support of" IG in both sections 5 and 6.  Must be getting my editions mixed up.  It  still maybe useful to have a general name for these things - How about "supporting arms"?  Or "imperial navy and titan legions" would cover it anyway.

How about:

Any further Commissars may be attached to any other formations with the exception of Imperial Navy Aircraft, Titan Legion BattleGroups, Orbital Support formations and any allied forces formation.

Blarg, while I guess I can't argue against your point on fixed by point cost (all my companies ARE bigger than 500 pts) I don't think it's true to the fluff to have 1D3 Commissars for every company.  I don't think every company should have a Commissar and the support formations should rarely, if ever, have a Commissar unless it's a Storm Trooper platoon or Rough Riders maybe.

All the guard fiction I've read puts the number of Commissars at a much lower ratio than one for every company.  Look at Abnett's Ghost series, two Commissars per the whole regiment, some 2000-3000 troopers.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:04 pm 
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(Dave @ May 08 2007,17:34)
QUOTE
My vote is for fixed by points at 1/450 pts.

I like 1/450 points as well, but I think "rounded up" as is normal in EPIC.

So, at 3000 points you'd have 7 Commissars.

I don't think they should be available for Titans, but they have absolutely no effect if added to Aircraft or Spacecraft so why limit that?

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Markconz
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:41 pm 
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1 per 500 rounded up. 450 is just awkward.

Bit of a discussion down the bottom of this SG thread on this issue, (450 vs 500):

http://forum.specialist-games.com/topic ... C_ID=11450

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:45 pm 
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1/500. Its just a good round number and most games i play are 3000pts anyway.

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Dave
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:57 pm 
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I'll yield to the 1/500 pts rounding up.  It fits the rounding rules as Chroma pointed out and deals with those odd point lists simply.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 10:17 pm 
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I still think Commissars should be only available to Command units (eg the "leader" of a given formation). The ruelbook uses for Commissars are more the Independent Commissars doctrine which standart IG regiments don't have.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 3:42 am 
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1 per 450 points. Gives a good distribution from 2000-5000 with most importantly a different number at 2700 and 3000 points (the two most common battle values I think).

Also add to their description may only be added to Imperial Guard units - so no Navy, Titans, Grey Knights etc etc.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:41 pm 
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I have a problem with fixed per number of points because you then have game size (non-IG players will keep game size, points per side, lower than the break-points) and army selection (strive for 1 Commissar per company) influenced by the number of commissars that the IG player will get...
you are still going to see a skewing towards expensive companies and away from support formations.


I seriously doubt this.  The pressure for fewer, larger formations to maximize Commisars exists regardless of whether they are set by points or randomized.  Fewer formations = higher proportion of Commisars either way.  It's not a new concept.  Predictability might make it more tempting to min-max, but the advantages are hardly new.

Random by activation or random by company just puts pressure in the opposite direction.  Just take a bunch of cheap formations or cheap infantry companies (depending on which you base Commisars on) to max out Commisars.  Popcorn IG forces would suddenly become all the rage.

Infantry companies w/ Stormtrooper support formations for a raging FF assault army of doom - Inspiring in virtually every formation... Commanders for combined assaults... dogs sleeping with cats... it'll be anarchy... Oh, the humanity!


Or not.  How much manipulation will people really do to get an extra Commisar?  I don't think any of the changes under serious discussion are going to affect the way IG players build and use their armies in an appreciable way.  As long as the numbers come out roughly the same, so will the army org.

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Charad
 Post subject: Commissars poll and review
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:01 pm 
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Just make them free upg for each core company, it will limit itself from min/maxing. :)  Okay, not good solution, but it could work...
That one per 500pts gives nice amounts of them and you don't have to build so many extra models either. Also extra randomness should be limited in epic scale.

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