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Imperial Guard review http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=9300 |
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Author: | The_Real_Chris [ Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:09 am ] |
Post subject: | Imperial Guard review |
Could this post be connected to me getting partial access to the old forum? Maybe. (Others may have noticed I post more when game less overseas.) I think since to many marines are bad for your health, how about a re-hash of the old 'guard stuff? I have for your amusement stuck the old list of everyones ideas to date. This is, um, extensive. However there are a few changes I would go for. They are the following (bet that surprised you). Edit Ah entirely forgot - Commissars only for IG units - no more sticking them in titans! Commissars. 1 per 450 points Yes, the Humble Commissar. Everyones favourite dice roll. Now I've nothing against the random system - bar its randomness. I acknowledge that not everyone has copied me and 1) made extra command/alt guardsmen/Ogryn stands for ever infantry detachment and 2) made a dozen loose commissars to stick on tanks. For these people the random roll is hard to represent on the table. Doing the above gives you a standard reliable number that a) doesn't leave you in the lurch and b) doesn't leave your opponent chasing fearless deathstrikes. In fact it gives you 6 at 2700 points, 7 at 3000 and 12 at 5000. Amasing eh? ![]() Baneblades. See vote, in essence powering up to match the shadowsword. Snipers. Make 1-2 for 25 points each. Increase the chance for these chaps to be taken. Deathstrike. Make indirect, remove no LOS. Everyone favourite weapons platform. Rough Riders. Up cost by 25 points. I mean come on, how good are they (cue assault marines/roughrider fight) On related Imperial notes - fix Marauder bombers and incorporate the Titan weapon changes. Then other stuff which isn't pressing but can be annoying (or a consquence of change elsewhere). Consider changing the sentinel gun to a lascannon to match the model. Or changing the model pic to the 3rd ed sentinel? Consider allowing the artillary company to take Bombards. Consider the effects of any demolisher change on the demolisher (no change, or if it does drop FF by 1?). |
Author: | Markconz [ Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:39 am ] |
Post subject: | Imperial Guard review |
Commissars - we have been playing 1 per 500, but 450 is good too. Baneblade - yep. Snipers - yeah I guess. Deathstrike - yes, definitely. I'd stick the points to 250 as well. Roughriders - is that all? Marauders we've been playing at 250 points, but basically any change that makes them more worthwhile is good. Titan Weapons - yep standard for ages now. Not sure many more changes are necessary. |
Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:24 pm ] |
Post subject: | Imperial Guard review |
Commissars - These definitely need to be 1 per xxx (I play at 500). Baneblade - I agree with upgunning it. Snipers - I agree. Deathstrike - I agree, plus possibly a points increase as Markonz says. Roughriders - Upping the cost seems sensible. Marauders - Agreed currently they're rubbish. Titan Weapons - Yep. Sentinel - YES. WYSIWYG is important and the Sentinel should change to having a Lascannon. Bombards - Yes. I think Bombard Companies should be allowed. |
Author: | Mephiston [ Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | Imperial Guard review |
Commissars - Yes. Baneblade - Yes, not sure what just yet but it needs a boost Snipers - Not sure it will help. Them aren't really helpful in foot formations due to range, and you have to buy them chimeras in mech formations. Deathstrike - Stats change. I think the price is ok as they are pretty easy to counter by most armies. May have to rethink if the skimmer rules are published as promised Roughriders - Yep. Marauders - Yes. Titan Weapons - Yes. Sentinel - Nope, a scout formation that can't hurt infantry would be really useless. Bombards - Yes. |
Author: | Flogus [ Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Imperial Guard review |
Commissars : I play them 1 per 500pts Baneblade : I'm not totally fine with what you propose, but it really need a big boost Snipers : ok, but that won't make them more worthable Deathstrikes : YES ! Rough Riders : I don't think they need to be nerfed. Mine's never make big things. Marauders Bombers : I prefere increasing their firepower than lowering their cost Sentinels : WYSIWYG ? Mine's got assault cannons ! ... Not, keep the 'standard' weaponnery of the Sentinel : multilaser. |
Author: | Chroma [ Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | Imperial Guard review |
(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 25 2007,09:09) QUOTE Rough Riders. Up cost by 25 points. I mean come on, how good are they (cue assault marines/roughrider fight) From personal experience, I think Rough Riders should lose their +1EACC and just have first strike on their lances so that their normal CC attack is first strike and remain at 150 points for six. |
Author: | Dave [ Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Imperial Guard review |
(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 25 2007,04:09) QUOTE Could this post be connected to me getting partial access to the old forum? Maybe. (Others may have noticed I post more when game less overseas.) A couple of these I can't really comment on as I haven't used the formations but here's my thoughts: 1. 1 Commissar for every 450 or 500 is much better in opinion to the rolling. I'd go with 450 only because you'd only get an extra one over the 500 every 5000 points. 3. I wouldn't increase the range of the snipers, they have the same range of a heavy bolter in 40k. I use 2 of them as it is so 1-2 for 25pts each is fine by me. If people think they're weak (personally I don't) some extra personnel stopping power is fine by me ![]() 5. I've never used Bombards but fluff wise I think they shouldn't be part of an artillery company as they aren't very common. 6. I'd up the cost of Manticores in an Artillery company and detachments. Perhaps an upgrade from a Basilisk for a certain amount of points each? 7. I think Basilisks are fine as is, a price increase for Manticores would be better in my opinion. 9. I love sentinels. A formation size of 4-6 or 4-8 would be useful though as would being able to upgrade then to Armageddon or Cadian patterns and maybe for the old Epic 40k model a Assault Cannon upgrade? At anyrate being able to upgrade the entire formation should be possible I think, for fluff reasons. 13. Personally I never understood why Ogryns had a save of 3+. I'd either reduce it to 4+ or boost their price by 50 pts. 14. I definitely think the inferno cannon should effect FF. 15. I have spent long hours putting plasma cannons on my Demolishers' sponsons. Please don't change them! If anything make it an up/down grade. As a side note, the Lucius Pattern Reaver does not have the correct weapon payload with regards to the Forgeworld model. Has this ever been addressed?[I] |
Author: | Markconz [ Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:57 am ] |
Post subject: | Imperial Guard review |
(Chroma @ Apr. 27 2007,19:07) QUOTE (The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 25 2007,09:09) QUOTE Rough Riders. Up cost by 25 points. I mean come on, how good are they (cue assault marines/roughrider fight) From personal experience, I think Rough Riders should lose their +1EACC and just have first strike on their lances so that their normal CC attack is first strike and remain at 150 points for six. I agree with Chroma's idea. |
Author: | Mark_Logue [ Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Imperial Guard review |
Yes on the Commisars. The current rules are simply anoying. |
Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:49 am ] |
Post subject: | Imperial Guard review |
As a side note, the Lucius Pattern Reaver does not have the correct weapon payload with regards to the Forgeworld model. Has this ever been addressed?[I] I attempted to address it with the modular weapons rules I collated... you'll find the link in my .sig, and IIRC the Lucius pattern Reaver with Volcano Canno, Missile Launcher & Gatling Blaster tops out at around 655 points. |
Author: | Dave [ Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Imperial Guard review |
(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 28 2007,03:49) QUOTE I attempted to address it with the modular weapons rules I collated... you'll find the link in my .sig, and IIRC the Lucius pattern Reaver with Volcano Canno, Missile Launcher & Gatling Blaster tops out at around 655 points. Now that's awfully handy. Thanks E&C. |
Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Imperial Guard review |
nps, feel free to leave feedback if you use the rules. Back OT: Warhounds to 275 for all Imperial Armies? |
Author: | Blarg D Impaler [ Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Imperial Guard review |
My takes on the IG: 1) Commissars - I don't like the current method for determining the number of Commissars also, but I'm not sure which way to go. While the idea of getting a fixed (or random) number per X points seems good, I'd be concerned that it might skew army selection in an effort to maximize the number of Commissars per formation. I'd suggest considering the idea that you get D3 (or D6, or whatever) Commissars per company that can then be spread among the company and any supporting formations. 2) Baneblades - Look, yet another discussion about the Baneblade... I thought that we had beat this one down to completion on the old SG forum. I'm glad that it hasn't been codified by the keeper of the lists, because I just revisited my calculations on this and found an error. Part of the problem with Baneblades versus Shadowswords is clarity of purpose and weapons load. Shadowswords are pretty obvious in what they are supposed to do, sit back and pick off war engines. Baneblades, being a rather general purpose tank, has a muddled mass of weapons and suffers from lack of distinct purpose. This is one of the few units in Epic that exemplify the Zhukov addage: "Quantity has a quality all of its own." If the idea of allowing certain units to split fire were to be allowed into the game I'd say that this should be one of them for the Imperial Guard. All of our talk about the main cannon, comparing the Baneblade to the Shadowsword, and revisiting my numbers have made me realise that we have not been willing to go far enough to properly beef up the Baneblade. Here is my suggestion: Baneblade (Proposed) Type: WE Speed: 15cm Armor: 4+ CC: 6+ FF: 4+ Mega Battle canon: 90cm - MW3+ Co-axial autocanon: 45cm - AP5+/AT6+ Hull Heavy bolter: 30cm - AP5+ Demolisher canon: 30cm - AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover 2x Twin-linked Heavy Bolters: 30cm - AP4+ 2x Lascannons: 45cm - AT5+ Notes: Reinforced Armor, Damage Capacity (3). Critical = magazine explosion, destroyed, units within 5cm hit on 6+ If you wanted to do some variants you can swap out the 2x Twin-linked Heavy Bolters for the following weapons: 2x Heavy Flamer, 15cm, AP4+, Ignore Cover 2x Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ 2x Multi-laser, 30cm, AP5+/AT6+ 2x Plasma Cannon, 30cm, AP4+/AT4+, Slow Fire 4x Storm Bolters, 15cm, AP4+ <<< --- >>> On a related topic, the stats for some of the super heavy tanks in the collector section stink. Here are the suggested stats for some of these tanks: Stormblade (Mars Pattern) Type: WE Speed: 15cm Armor: 4+ CC: 6+ FF: 4+ Plasma Blastgun: 45cm - 2x MW3+ 1x Hellion Missile: 60cm ? MW2+, Single Shot, TK(D3) 4x Hunter-Killer Missiles: 60cm ? AT4+, Single Shot Auto Cannon: 45cm ? AP5+/AT6+ 4x Heavy Bolter: 30cm ? AP5+ Notes: Reinforced Armor, Damage Capacity (3). Critical = magazine explosion, destroyed, units within 5cm hit on 6+ Stormblade (Lucious Pattern) Type: WE Speed: 15cm Armor: 4+ CC: 6+ FF: 4+ Stormblade Plasma Blastgun: 90cm - 2x MW4+ 2x Lascannon: 45cm ? AT5+ 2x Twin-linked Heavy Bolters: 30cm ? AP4+ 1x Heavy Bolter: 30cm ? AP5+ Notes: Reinforced Armor, Damage Capacity (3). Critical = magazine explosion, destroyed, units within 5cm hit on 6+ Stormhammer Type: WE Speed: 15cm Armor: 4+ CC: 6+ FF: 3+ 2x Twin Demolisher Cannons: 30cm ? AP2+/AT3+, Ignore Cover, can fire all around 4x Autocannon: 45cm ? AP5+/AT6+ 4x Heavy Bolter: 30cm ? AP5+ Notes: Reinforced Armor, Thick Rear Armor, Damage Capacity (3). Critical = magazine explosion, destroyed, units within 5cm hit on 6+ 3) Snipers - No comment 4) Deathstrike Missile - changing the "No-LOS" to Indirect Fire is fine with me. The nice thing about this is it brings it in line with the other one-shot missiles that have been discussed in the AMTL. We could actually bring the Deathstrike Missile Launcher even closer to the way it was back in 2nd. ed. Epic (SM/TL) by giving a small selection of missiles that these can fire. Maybe tack on the Barrage Missile and the Warp Missile as possible substitutions? 5) Bombards - In 2nd ed. Epic, Space Marine / Titan Legions the Imperial Guard had two different types of artillery companies: The Artillery Company with 6x Basilisk and 3x Bombards, and the Missile Company with 6x Manticores and 3x Whirlwinds. Now, obviously the Whirlwind has been made a Space Marine only unit since then, but allowing the Bombards into Artillery Companies does have precedent. If we feel comfortable that the Bombards are equal to the Basilisk and the Manticore then I say we allow them to be taken in the company. 6) Manticore - No comment 7) Basilisks - No comment ![]() 9) The problem with the armament for the Sentinel is that there are two (or more?) different models out there, the old one with the Multi-laser and the new one with the Lascannon. The good news is that they are both equally powerful the way I see it. I suggest that the stats for the Sentinel show 3 (or more) different options: Heavy Flamer, 15cm, AP4+, Ignore Cover Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ Multi-laser, 30cm, AP5+/AT6+ Other options could include: Twin-linked Heavy Bolters: 30cm ? AP4+ Plasma Cannon, 30cm, AP4+/AT4+, Slow Fire 2x Storm Bolters, 15cm, AP4+ 10) No comment 11) No comment 12) No comment 13) No comment 14) Hellhounds - I've never liked how the flame weapon on this was represented, but I'd want to do a deep dive discussion on the Imperial Guard before messing with it as much as I have thought of doing. 15) Demolishers - NO, DO NOT CHANGE OUT THE PLASMA CANNONS!!! NO! ![]() ![]() ![]() The Demolisher has always been a goofy design that never made much sense in my opinion. (It struck me as more of an excuse to make more money for GW by making an LRuss variant than a dedicated effort to fill a hole in the IG inventory of armor.) The weapons combo has always been at odds with each other as far as I could see. You're probably thinking: "We should change it then!" No. We leave it alone. It is the IG version of the Vindicator; not a good design, but you live with it because that is what has been given to us from the beginning. Unless the stats for it don't agree with what we have seen before (which I don't think that they have) or the points cost does not match the capabilities then I don't see much reason to change it. |
Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:59 pm ] |
Post subject: | Imperial Guard review |
9) The problem with the armament for the Sentinel is that there are two (or more?) different models out there, the old one with the Multi-laser and the new one with the Lascannon. The good news is that they are both equally powerful the way I see it. I suggest that the stats for the Sentinel show 3 (or more) different options: Heavy Flamer, 15cm, AP4+, Ignore Cover Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+ Multi-laser, 30cm, AP5+/AT6+ Other options could include: Twin-linked Heavy Bolters: 30cm ? AP4+ Plasma Cannon, 30cm, AP4+/AT4+, Slow Fire 2x Storm Bolters, 15cm, AP4+ Of the above, only the first three are valid weapon loads for a sentinel. All of your bottom three suggestions are unrepresentative of a sentinel's armament options. Baneblade (Proposed) Type: WE Speed: 15cm Armor: 4+ CC: 6+ FF: 4+ Mega Battle canon: 90cm - MW3+ Co-axial autocanon: 45cm - AP5+/AT6+ Hull Heavy bolter: 30cm - AP5+ Demolisher canon: 30cm - AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover 2x Twin-linked Heavy Bolters: 30cm - AP4+ 2x Lascannons: 45cm - AT5+ I'm against the battle cannon being MW status (Because qualitatively more powerful weapons in 40k such as the Demolisher Cannon have *not* been given MW status). I'm also against changing the range, for similar reasons. |
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