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Elysian Sentinels
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=6767		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  Honda [ Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels
This topic will be used to support discussions on the various Sentinel units in the Elysian list
Author:  Cosmic Serpent [ Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels
Thought I'd start with my thoughts.

If given the freedom to have the Sentinels I would want - I'd have four versions.

I would start with the multi melta and heavy bolter versions that are in IA3 and cover the MW and AP variants.  Adding to this, I would like to see something that has a little AT punch to it - so I would like to see a lascannon version to add a little reach out and touch you AT support.  Finally I would like to see the rocket pod support sentinel (or some sort of support sentinel) as that is also covered in IA3 and probably pretty core to the Elysians from a fire support perspective.

I think the Sentinels are somewhat core the Elysian force (as described in IA3) - so four variants to cover all bases wouldn't be out of line.
Author:  Honda [ Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels
?

In the new list that should be posted soon, I put in three versions of the Sentinel, under the two categories described previously:

1. Drop Sentinel, comes in a Multi-melta and Heavy Bolter version as detailed in IA3. The MM stats were borrowed from the SM Landspeeder.

2. Support Sentinel, allows for a moderately ranged BM support.

I appreciate your suggestion for an AT sentinel, but I did not add an anti-tank version as IA3 does not support it, even though there is probably a need for one. However, the Elysians are not going to be able to deal with all threats and in fact are susceptible to combined arms responses that include a fair amount of armor.

They are going to have to find a way to deal with that threat in other ways. They do have other tools for that.
Author:  Cosmic Serpent [ Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels
I agree - I was just looking at where the army seems to be weak (which is OK) and I agree there are other ways we'll have to deal with heavy armor.

I figure a couple squadrons of Valkyries can help with the armor issue?

Glad to hear the support sentinels made it into the list - I really think they are a key element that is somewhat unique to teh Elysians and needs to be in there in some form.

PS - if in the future you need someone to convert it to .pdf and put it somewhere to be linked to, I can do that as well.  Anything we can do to help you out. :D
Author:  Tactica [ Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:29 am ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels
Per IA3, the way I see it...

4 Elysian sentinels, 2 categories

A)  Drop Sentinels
?- no scout
?- may teleport
?- may ride in a valkyrie
1) Heavy bolter (30cm AP5+)
2) Multi-melta (15cm MW5+ AND 'small arms' MW)

B)  Support Sentinels
?- no scout
?- no teleport
?- may ride in valkyrie
1) MRP (30cm 1BP, Disrupt)
2) Support Missle Launcher (30cm AT5+, Indirect Fire)

Cheers,
Author:  Honda [ Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels
@Tactica

:/

Give the list a gander, you were really close.
Author:  jfrazell [ Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels
Drop sentinel squad- is it an either/or choice or can they mix HB's/MM's?

Notes: Walker, count up the number of Sentinel units that can fire at the target formation and divide by two (rounding up) to find
the number of rocket pod shots you may take


Should that be " to find the number of rocket pod shots you can shoot?"

I am assuming this done to replicate delays in firing - replicating Slow Firing via another route?
Author:  Honda [ Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels

Drop sentinel squad- is it an either/or choice or can they mix HB's/MM's?


They can be mixed in IA3, so does that need to be stated? Sort of the same thing as two versions of predators. I'm easy to amending the text either way.


 
Notes: Walker, count up the number of Sentinel units that can fire at the target formation and divide by two (rounding up) to find
the number of rocket pod shots you may take


Should that be " to find the number of rocket pod shots you can shoot?"

I am assuming this done to replicate delays in firing - replicating Slow Firing via another route?


I suppose that is one way to look at it. My assumption is that the Support Sentinels would not have a ROF as high as a similar type of vehicle borne weapon (e.g. Griffon), therefore, to lessen their impact, I cut down on their BP value.
Author:  Cosmic Serpent [ Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:01 am ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels
My thoughts on Support Sentinels -

They should definately be able to Teleport, as they can deep strike like normal Sentinels in IA3.

My main problem is the rocket pods themselves.  They are all single use weapons - so how do we justify changing the rules for a given weapon system?  If we are going to use rocket pods (as we should) then we should also be limiting them to one shot weapons as well - but by doing so, we make these a not very useful unit, especially for the points.

Two other vehicles we should be looking at for comparisons are the Land Speeder Typhoon and Whirlwind as well - both have similiar weapon systems, and you could argue tactically they fill a similiar role (somewhat, more the Whirlwind).

I also think Sentinels should be bought with platoons being either HB or MM versions - and tactically you'd probably be better doing that anyway, as units can't split fire, but that shouldn't affect our decision.

All Sentinels should have the Teleport ability, assuming they aren't transported in a Valkyrie.
Author:  Honda [ Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels
All Sentinels can teleport. It is an army special rule. I will update the notes sections for all the entries as this does not seem to be clear.
Author:  Cosmic Serpent [ Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:04 am ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels
Personally, I would like to see the Teleport ability with the caveat that it can't be used if riding in a Valkyrie under all units that it applies too - just to clarify things and prevent someone saying something can teleport if we aren't intending it too.
Author:  Tactica [ Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:52 am ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels
Quote (Honda @ 13 Mar. 2006 (07:32))
@Tactica

:/

Give the list a gander, you were really close.

@honda,

OK, looked at the list and gave comments... now back to sentinels.

I still like my suggestion better. :p
Author:  Honda [ Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels

I still like my suggestion better


Yes, otherwise you wouldn't have made the suggestion.  :/

However, although Disrupt would be nice, I struggle with allowing for the capability. All the attached units should help facilitate an assault, but should not be so strong on their own that they can have a noticeable effect.

My Vision ™: The infantry need the supporting units and the Supporting units need the infantry. They should not operate alone very well. That is one of the differences between the Elysians and other "Guard" armies, in that as good or as bad as they may be in assault, that is exactly what they do. So we have to come up with the tools that allow them to assault in a reasonable manner, without becoming close combat monsters.

If you look at the macro-view of the 40K list, what the Elysians do, once they get on the ground, is get close enough to launch their demo attacks, then finish off the survivors with lasguns and bayonets (well, that's a little stretch, but it's close).

In EA, we are better able to model that type of action because the game mechanics are stronger.
Author:  Cosmic Serpent [ Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:52 am ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels
I'm still very strongly opinionated on this topic - and maybe we should approach this in a similiar manner we did with the mortar teams.  What is the desired effect?

In my opinion, support weapons are there to place blast markers or give some sort of AT punch to a unit.  Just looking at the versions of the Sentinel - I still like the rocket pods idea - 1 BP per Sentinel.

To your point about the infantry needs the support and the support needing the infantry - I think this covers this configuration exactly.  Sentinels just aren't that tough - light vehicles means anything can hit them, a pretty poor armor save means they will die easily if not supported by another unit.  The infantry are the same way - with being only 8 stand companies plus command - it doesn't take much to break them as you get a few kills and a few blast markers - and you've pretty much got a broken Elysian unit.  Much easier to break than a normal guard company because of the smaller number of stands.

So even if you did give the Sentinels Rocket Pods (1 BP per sentinel) they would get a decent roll on the barrage table - but that's their purpose, and it isn't nearly as strong as a true artillery unit throwing 9-18 BP's down range.  The only hang up is the single shot rule that has a precedence in all other versions of this weapon.

This unit should be tougher than mortars but not as tough as a full artillery battery - and I think being able to lay down a 4 BP barrage is exactly where this unit should fall in the scope of power.
Author:  Honda [ Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:07 am ]
Post subject:  Elysian Sentinels
@Cosmic (since we're the only ones up right now)


So even if you did give the Sentinels Rocket Pods (1 BP per sentinel) they would get a decent roll on the barrage table - but that's their purpose, and it isn't nearly as strong as a true artillery unit throwing 9-18 BP's down range. ?The only hang up is the single shot rule that has a precedence in all other versions of this weapon.


This is a fair statement and I think we have to look at this. However, I think we also need to keep in mind what other 4 BP units look like. So Griffons and Whirlwinds, come to mind quickly.

Are the Sentinels equivalent to those units? Not trying to be coy, just get a feel for what you are thinking.

Also, is 1/2 BP per unit + Disrupt a viable option?
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