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Iron Discipline
Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:42 pm 
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OK, thought this needed a topic of it's own - as it is shaping up to be a core rule.  

I think the current option that seems to be taken in the best light at this point is the +1 BM than normal to break a unit.  Normally you need equal or greater BM's than stands left in the unit to break it, we can probably word it that you need greater than the number of stands (which is effectively giving it the +1).

So what are your thoughts on this - I'd like to get more input from others before I write it into the list - and then have to change it later.

Let the dscussion begin.
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jfrazell
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:51 pm 
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Would suggest future threads start with "Elysian list" (yes I am gyuilty of this as well with the mortar thread. Explanation-this is EA Imperial Guard so other items or list may come up as well.

To the point, I like the ID rule you suggested.  Its not overpowering but gives a slight increase in BM strength.

Personally at this strength level I would not champion a points increase to account for this ability absent significant playtest.  Its a rule "bene" for the Elysian list which is counterbalanced by their complete lack of armor.


What would be interesting is if this continued to develop if certain traits could be tallied and priced for larger lists.  But thats way beyond the scope of what we're doing now.

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Honda
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:52 pm 
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I think the "+1 BM extra to break text" is a good starting position.

Make it so...

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Tactica
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:29 pm 
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I'll repost the following which was first suggested here LINKY-LINK on pages 2 and three...

+ + + COMMENCE REPOST (with slight modification) + + +

So you got me thinking.... first, the source. Iron discipline in 40K is 1) unmodified LD tests and 2) may rally when below 50% unit strength if broken.

Generically, that means two things:
1) harder to break from a hail of fire, ordinance, and sniping
2) may rally even in the most dire of battle circumstances

Rhetorical Question: So how to reflect those two generic things in E:A from an Elysian Iron Discipline rule without going over the top?

First, I like the 1 extra blast marker than normal to break. Its simple, easy to calculate, and nice little bonus reflecting 'harder to break' than normal. Perfect.

Second, this is the more powerful and 'meatier' ability. I would say something like, an Elysian's chance to regroup will never get worse than a [EDIT] 4+ [/EDIT], regardless of negaives. So I would propose:

ELYSIAN SPECIAL RULE

Iron Discipline

Elysian Drop Troops are battle hardened, have a strengthened resolve, and adhere to battle doctrine with an Iron Discipline. This means they have a stronger moral compass on the battlefield and will remain steadfast under a withering hail of fire. Even when they've appeared to break, Elysians are simply making a tactical withdrawl to a calculated predetermined location.

Any formation containing at least one unit with Iron Discipline will require 1 additional blast marker beyond the norm in order to break and if the formation attempts to regroup, they will never apply more than a single [EDIT] -2 [/EDIT] modifer, regardless of enemy proximity or broken status. The formation may be suppressed as normal.




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Tactica
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:34 pm 
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...and quoting honda from the sentinels thread...

Actually, the Valkyries are a formation upgrade, so they are going to get the ID any way.

Regarding Vultures, I'm not sure I agree with ID. Reasons: aircraft no matter how tough, will bail in the face if sufficient flak and this starts changing the basic behavior of a previously published unit (SL). I don't think we want to go there.


Agreed

Valkyries = yes
Vultures = no way that will fly with public or fluff support

PS - sentinels, like all infantry, should have ID.

Cheers,




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:38 pm 
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It does have the curious effect of being better for smaller formations as opposed to larger.

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Tactica
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:42 pm 
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Also, if we only give +1 BM removal - it does nothing for the rally.

This is one of two *MAIN* points of ID. Even in the worse conditions, they can rally where others may and often do faulter.

Chaos (thats not fearless) and below 50% starting unit strength in 40K will fall back off the table once broken. ID troops will still rally off of an unmodified Leadership - and if there's an officer nearby, they'll even use his onmodified LD isntead of their own!

This is a huge factor to over look. Thus the part 2 and "never worse than 3+ to rally" recomendation.

I think it would be a significant mistake to over look this second part of the ability.

Cheers,

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:19 pm 
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Breaking on 1 more BM than usual is, at best, a nominal advantage.  I rarely see formations 1 BM from breaking by fire and losing an assault still means you're broken.

Overall, I don't think I'd bother with it simply because the practical effect is so small.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:35 pm 
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Iron Discipline shouldn't make them better than marines (nor should it make them the same as marines). I guess you have to decide just how much better these guys are compared to normal IG. If they are that much better, maybe a 1+ initiative would be better for the sake of simplicity.

Barring that, if the community really wants these guys to rally easier than normal IG, then they should probably be able to ignore the -1 modifier for having enemy within 30cm. That caps the rally roll at 4+ (right?), which would be acceptible to most players, I would think.

Even the fluff could support what I suggest. I mean, these guys are Airborne, right? They're used to being surrounded.
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Tactica
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:54 pm 
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NH,

It would affect 3-man sentinel formations in that 1 kill would not immediately break them. Significant by itself . Big enough over the course of an entire army to have an impact

Significant enough once coupled with the additional recommended effect, which is now that they will always rally on 4+ worst case... - playtest would tell.

semajnollissor,

Point well made. I revised my recomendation with the orange text above - see [EDIT] language.

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Honda
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:44 am 
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@semajnollissor

Barring that, if the community really wants these guys to rally easier than normal IG, then they should probably be able to ignore the -1 modifier for having enemy within 30cm.


This is a very interesting thought.

If we coupled this with the extra BM, does anyone feel like that is a big enough deal to bump the points?

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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:33 am 
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Not really - if anything, maybe by just 25 points?

I would say we try it at the current points - see if it is proving to be too much, then increase as needed.
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Tactica
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:43 am 
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Quote (Honda @ 20 Mar. 2006 (18:44))
@semajnollissor

Barring that, if the community really wants these guys to rally easier than normal IG, then they should probably be able to ignore the -1 modifier for having enemy within 30cm.


This is a very interesting thought.

If we coupled this with the extra BM, does anyone feel like that is a big enough deal to bump the points?

@Honda,

Works for me. I like it...

OK, feel free to manipulate as you see fit - or discard all together, but something like the following may work:

ELYSIAN SPECIAL RULE

Iron Discipline

Elysian Drop Troops are battle hardened, have a strengthened resolve when comared to other fighting elements of the Imperial guard and adhere to battle doctrine with an Iron Discipline. This means they have a stronger moral compass on the battlefield and will remain steadfast under a withering hail of fire. Even when they've appeared to break, Elysians are simply executing a tactical withdrawl to a predetermined location for a regrouped counter assault.

Any formation containing at least one unit with Iron Discipline will require 1 additional blast marker beyond the norm in order to break. In addition, when a formation with Iron Discipline attempts to regroup, they will ignore the -1 modifer for troops within 30cm, regardless of broken status. The formation may be suppressed as normal.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:02 am 
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The 1bm thing is primarily a boost for small formations, not big ones. The other idea about ignoring the -1 for close to the enemy though is great - it means these guys can opportate up close and personal far more than others who have to back off to regroup, really shows better training. Means they rally/shift blastmarkers far more.

The +1bm stuff is more fiddly and of less use for the big fomrations. Instead why not simply give more of the commanders leader. Easy to do, in the rules and you can see the effect more easily.

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Honda
 Post subject: Iron Discipline
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:05 pm 
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The +1bm stuff is more fiddly and of less use for the big fomrations. Instead why not simply give more of the commanders leader. Easy to do, in the rules and you can see the effect more easily.


Fair statement, but if we are already allowing for the fact that some of these formations will have a Commissar with them, is that OTT?

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