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Mortar unit proposal

Honda

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:45 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Why not have a formation or unit that uses the same method for determining how many mortars there are that IG infantry companies use for determining how many autocannons there are in the formation. That way, you could effectively have a 0.5BP per stand. In fact, you could just go ahead and list 1/2 or 0.5 BP in their stats, and just state that the number should be rounded up to the nearest whole number.

Well, that would be a very simple mechanism and I won't throw that out, but the thing to keep in mind with the Elysian TO&E, is that the support weapons are concentrated vs. distributed. So the basic drop squad doesn't have access to any special type weapons, other than the demo charge.

However, we are just discussing the best way possible at this time.

@NH,

Before I'd answer, I'd want to know what those mortars were trying to simulate? Mortars come in light (40-60mm), Medium (81-100mm) and Heavy varieties (4.2", 240mm).

If those mortars are attempting to model the light to medium variety, then I'd say 2 BP is high.

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the 40K Catachans to tell what they are intended to emulate.

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Honda

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nealhunt

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:46 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Simulation's got nothing to do with it.

4 x 2BP for 100 points is too cheap. The formation as a whole is 8BP, 7 Autocannons, 17 stands, for 350 points.

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Neal

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jfrazell

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:08 pm

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Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:21 pm
Posts: 144

Quote (nealhunt @ 14 Mar. 2006 (18:46))

Simulation's got nothing to do with it.

4 x 2BP for 100 points is too cheap. ?The formation as a whole is 8BP, 7 Autocannons, 17 stands, for 350 points.

I would agree. Most of our incredible statistical analysis (wets thumb and holds up in air) is running 25+ points per BP in this type of format. At 12.5 per BP thats substantially below the range.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:31 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
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Location: London

You can't unfortuently do bps as a straigh points per bp thing. But an rt company for 100 points doesn't require analysis.

Simulation wise for me a guard mortar stand is three 81mil mortars, 9 to a section. In game the same rt as three 105mm guns (what I assume basilisks to be), but obviously shorter range.

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jfrazell

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:52 pm

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Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:21 pm
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Which goes back to the 1bp per per unit, 3 bp argument if I am reading you correctly.

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Honda

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:04 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

And going even deeper, if you aren't going to drop the mortar unit, then do you want to spend an additional 40 points to transport 1 BP?

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Honda

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Cosmic Serpent

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:50 am

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Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am
Posts: 137
Location: Chicago

OK - I gave this some more thought over the evening and while at work - and read a bunch of good comments.

I take back my initial statement that I think it should be 4 BPs (1 per stand for the whole formation). Looking at the Barrage rules - AP 4+ and AT 5+ with and additional template is just way to powerful for mortars (based on all other weaponry - IMHO).

I do like the idea of giving them 3 BP (4 stands - 3 mortar teams and a spotter team - which is historically accurate, and why would mortars in the future not have spotters as they do today?) That being said - I change my opinion, and really think they should probably be AP 5+/AT6+ at best (no additional templates)-which would put us in the 2 BP category on the barrage table (having anything better than AT 6+ for a mortar is just nuts - they aren't AT weapons at all).

I'm also of the opinion there should be four teams in total - maybe we could say there are three two man mortar teams per stand (1 BP each) and two spotter units (one for each section of three mortars).

I guess regardless of how we model them - I'm now a believer of having them be a 2 BP unit - as that makes the most sense - these aren't super weapons, and are really used to keep the enemies heads down (place BP's).

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Legion 4

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:33 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA

Your mortar mm rating is pretty good, Honda (I like it when guys do their homework !).

?The ? point thing like the IG auto cannon paradigm does not work for me ... However, how about - Lt = ? BP per, Med = 1 BP per, Hvy = 2 BP per tube. ?There would 4-6 tubes per mortar plt. ... save for Hvy - 3-4 per plt. ?Just my take on it ... ? :laugh:

?IIRC, Neal was a USMC mortar crewman ?! ? :;):

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Tactica

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:47 am

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Just out of curiousity,

you could do any of the following, however, more units = more points due to CC and FF potential.

a. 1 unit = 3 motar models on 1 stand = 3BP

b. 3 units = X motars modeled on 3 different stands = 3BP

c. 6 units = x motars per stand = every other stand = 3BP

NOTE: I do not care for a spotter stand idea. Too fiddly for this scale.

To me, option b. fits the 100 points category the best. You'll only have to pay an additional 40 points for one additional valkyrie to get the upgrade into valkyries as there's an open spot on the commander's valkyrie already.

Just my KISS thoughts on the matter.

Cheers,

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Honda

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:45 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Well, now that we're getting close in opinion on the BP range, what if we just do:

2 x Units, 1 BP each

That equates to one extra Valkyrie @ 40 pts. From a TO&E perspective, that fits the transport requirement (multiple of 2) and is consistent as the Weapons teams are allocated their own bird.

Thoughts?

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"Remember Taros? We do"

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nealhunt

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:01 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Quote (Legion 4 @ 15 Mar. 2006 (05:33))

IIRC, Neal was a USMC mortar crewman ?! :;):

Machine gunner, actually - a "pig-man." We cross-trained with the mortars on occasion, but I only have rudimentary experience.

I do know from my brief stint as platoon commander that mortars using "rapid deployment" techniques are less effective than what I consider "normal" deployment.

USMC doctrine has even the heavy weapons attached to line infantry using full mountings and a major part of training was the teams doing rapid deployment and break down of the full rig. In my experience with US Army and (briefly) British military, their doctrine is much more "fire and go." They use light or partial setups for ease of setup and teardown, and as a result have to focus more on their gunnery skills to make up for the lack of a stable platform.

There are arguments for both, not least of which is the physical strain of carrying the additional tripods/baseplates/etc. on a road march, but with respect to on-target rounds during combat I think the full setup is definitely better.

Then again, I'm undoubtedly biased and believe that my boys did it the right way... :devil:

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Legion 4

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:14 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36947
Location: Ohio - USA

Well you seem to know you're stuff, so you know your way around heavy weapons, Neal !

Good, between you and me ... we should be able to give tech advise in this venture !

Yes, we were into "shoot & Scoot" ! In the 101 we were often short Mortar PLs, so I'd fill in with our Co. 81mm plt ! :;):

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Cosmic Serpent

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:41 am

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Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am
Posts: 137
Location: Chicago

I'm ok with that. I think 2 BPs is the exact number we should have for mortars, and our prime guidance should be there effect, not the number of stands. So using 2 BPs as the effect they will generate - I'm cool with breaking it down into two stands and one Valkyrie transport.

From a modeling perspective, I would personally probably model two mortar teams of two men each on a stand. If I could fit three and make it look good, that would probably be my preference, but it's really not the important part of the discussion.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:52 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA

In the past and still today mortars could be deployed in 2-3 gun section ... but 2 BPs per tube may be high IMO ...

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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Cosmic Serpent

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:54 am

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Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am
Posts: 137
Location: Chicago

IMHO - each stand represents a section. Looking at them being much lighter than the Griffon, but having three tubes I think 1 BP per stand is right. Higher volume - lower caliber shells.

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