Tactical Command | View topic - Mortar unit proposal

Page 1 of 3

[ 38 posts ]

Go to page 1, 2, 3 Next

View unanswered posts | View active topics View unread posts | View new posts | View your posts

Mortar unit proposal

jfrazell

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:06 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:21 pm
Posts: 144

Conversed with Honda concerning potential mortar units. ?Here's some informaiton and proposals from moi. ?Initial ?Unit parameters given were 30cm range and 1BP.

Comments/thoughts/etc?

Elysian Mortar Support Unit

Points cost :
Baran Siege list: Rapier and thud guns are priced at 75 points for unit of three. ?Proposal move up to units of four or down to two for V transport. ?

Siege regiment artillery is 50 points per model. Gotterdamerung has 1BP item but 90? range+ transport.

Griffon is 33 points per model, includes chimera chassis (HB + mobility)
Stats are 1PB with a range of 30cm.
Proposal: 25 points per unit.

Effectiveness: proposed similar stats to Griffon or Gotterdammerung in line with ?earlier vision of 1BP. Thudd gun stats would be appropriate but do not fit the desired paradigm.
Proposal:
Range AP AT AAA Notes
30 cm 1BP Indirect fire option*
*While up for discussion I would imagine that to fit with the moderate distance weaponry designed to specifically provide close in support to units, that the mortar have the ability to drop BP?s directly as well.

*Should there be a limit on indirect distance of the mortar to 30cm, instead of the normal 60cm double?

Unit of 2 or 4?
A unit of 2 in my view follows the concept of a light mortar unit, whereas a total 4 BP provides a much stronger 4+/5+ strike with an extra template. ?It depends on intent and the final effectiveness of the sentinel variants. ? ?
Barrage
Barrage Points ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Template ? Extra BMs' AP AT
2 0 0 5+ 6+
4-5 1 0 4+ 5+
Thoughts on unit size?

Transport:
Proposed: Valkyrie at 40 bps (or final version of general list pricing) or teleport (airdrop). 1 Valkyrie for 2 units.
In this manner the player has the option of teleporting in an appropriate formation or flying them in and then using the Valkyrie firepower and ability to reposition
(at the disadvantage of having them in a fixed flight location).

Support formation or formation upgrade?
-if heavy unit recommend as support formation
-if light recommend as formation upgrade.
Group input?
Note: Baran list ? thuds and griffons are support formations. Inversely the Steel Legion list uses Griffons as company upgrades.
There is always the option of a 2 unit upgrade (light mortar detachment) and 4 unit independent formation (company fire support).

_________________
"Advance to the Rear!"

Top

Honda

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:29 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Before I comment, take a look at my first stab at mortars and we can go from there.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Top

jfrazell

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:18 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:21 pm
Posts: 144

reviewed the V2 list. Not as keen on that type of mortar squad.

4 units, but two effective at 75 points. With the exception of the 2 ablative meat shields thats somewhat expensive.

I think my real objection (other than cost) is that it doesn't fit with how light support weapons are used in the other lists, particularly the Baran list. Note support squads also do not use the 1/2 unit format - only pure groundpounder squads. AS these are upgrades the mortar units are not suffering from infantry cover, and there are already upgrades to increase the number fo infantry units in a formation.

On a point basis, at 31 points, I'd probably go with the support sentinel version vs. this immediate incarnation. But again thats just one opinion.

Excellent V2 FYI. I look forward to shooting it up with shuricats/dropping VW sized basi shells on it in the future :alien:

_________________
"Advance to the Rear!"

Top

Honda

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:46 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Ok, finally had time to read John's post. My thoughts:

1. Prefer company upgrade to prevent cheap activation
2. Range should be no more than 30 cm, though for light mortars, is there a precedent for 15 cm? L4, care to comment?
3. Unit size needs to be some multiple of 2, to fit within the transportation requirement for Valkyries.
4. I'm figuring that my costs are high, so given the above, what is a good cost/unit?

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Top

Legion 4

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:08 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36947
Location: Ohio - USA

Yes ... Lt. Mortar 60mm - 15cms, Med 81mm - 30cms, Hvy 4.2in/107mm - 45cms +, generally ... ?A 4.2 inch Hvy Mortar could fire over 5 Ks ... so use that as a guide. ? Probably keep Med. mortars at Co. level, Hvy at Bn, and Lt at plt. ?We only have them at Co. and Bn, in our games ... ?And should be man portable, so they can be carried in APCs (Chimera, Rhinos) and Valks. ... go for it boys ! ? :;):

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Top

The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:14 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

Unfortuently for your transports the barrage table has a funny jump at 4bp to lots of firepower.

You don't have to be a barrage though - giving a mortar stand an AP4+ attack, range 30cm, indirect fire is another option.

Playtest wise I tested infantry, move 10cm, cc0 ff5, mortar range 30cm, 1BP, indirect, as griffon replacements for the same points.

One thing that came up there was increased survivability due to the rest of the company being a meat shield.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' Ã¢â‚¬â€œ Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Top

jfrazell

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:54 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:21 pm
Posts: 144

Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 13 Mar. 2006 (18:14))

I hadn't thought of the meat shield aspect in detail. That would be an advantage over an ordinary griffon.

I think one factor to consider is whether or not we want this to work as a Thudd gun, which for intents and purposes is like a mortar team.

_________________
"Advance to the Rear!"

Top

Cosmic Serpent

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:51 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am
Posts: 137
Location: Chicago

My thoughts -

4 stands, as two is just too few.

Should be 1 BP per stand. 30 cm range, no indirect fire (as all that allows you to do is increase the range to twice the listed, and we want to keep it at 30 cm). Alternatively you could use a range of 15 cm, with indirect fire to get you up to 30 cm - but shouldn't be anything greater than that.

Cost (and justification)- I think it should be 100 points for this unit. Basis for this is Griffons are 33 points a piece (versus the 25 per stand these would be). Griffins have greater mobility, are armoured vehicles, have indirect fire (effectively doubling their range over mortars), and have heavy bolters as well. The only thing I haven't considered (and not sure how) is the meatshield dilemna......and how it adds to their survivability. The one thing that should give them a slight increase in cost is the bump they would give you on the barrage table - which is why I think 25 pts a stand isn't too much.

This is how I would like to see them. They do give you a nice bump on the barage table (for being a unit of four), but keep in mind the Elysians don't have large artillery formations as other units can easily get. I would imagine a typical army having a few mortar formations, and probably a Sentinel support squadron - and that's it as far as organic barrage support.

You could consider the fact that they will have craploads of Valkyries and Vultures which can generate BP's, but they are one shot weapons.

Just my two cents.

Top

The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:43 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

You have to remember the bp table - 4bp is twice the direpower of 3bp....

Top

jfrazell

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:22 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:21 pm
Posts: 144

Ok,

Lets back up a bit. What will be the purpose of the mortar team

1. light unit support effectively replacing thudd guns and similar platoon level fire support.
15cm direct/30cm indirect seems appropriate in this instance.

2. heavy unit support effectively replacing artillery.
a slightly longer range 30/60cm seems appropriate.

I agree with 25 points per unit (but would employ normally, not the half unit concept).

As an upgrade to a company formation:
Another option would be to have three units and a fire control unit (either as leader or just equivalent to a troop squad). Thats 3 BP, in line with with griffons and Gotterdamerungs, but its effectiveness is limited by shorter range. It would stil be transported by two Valkyries.

Strength 3 bp is AP 4+ AT 6+ with no additional markers or templates.

_________________
"Advance to the Rear!"

Top

Honda

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:41 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Lets back up a bit. What will be the purpose of the mortar team

1. light unit support effectively replacing thudd guns and similar platoon level fire support.
15cm direct/30cm indirect seems appropriate in this instance.

2. heavy unit support effectively replacing artillery.
a slightly longer range 30/60cm seems appropriate.

I agree with 25 points per unit (but would employ normally, not the half unit concept).

As an upgrade to a company formation:
Another option would be to have three units and a fire control unit (either as leader or just equivalent to a troop squad). Thats 3 BP, in line with with griffons and Gotterdamerungs, but its effectiveness is limited by shorter range. It would stil be transported by two Valkyries.

Strength 3 bp is AP 4+ AT 6+ with no additional markers or templates.

Ok, this is looking better.

One of the things we need to keep in mind is that the mortar unit is not a walking version of a Griffon battery. This is supposed to be a lighter weapon, on the order of a 60mm or 81 mm weapon, so that it remains man-portable, but somewhat effective when the infantry is assaulting.

There won't be a heavier version as there isn't a precedent and the Elysians rely on their Vultures for heavier firepower.

One of the things that stands out in reading Taros, especially if you read between the lines, is that the Elysians expect to have fairly heavy assistance from air assets in order to remain effective. It is quite apparent from the story line that the lack of involvment by the Imperial Navy and the short loiter times by their organically attached Vultures contributed to their downfall, when the combined arms response of the Tau arrived.

The mortars didn't save their behinds, nor did Sentinels. So keep this in mind as you are arriving at a solution. The mortars should provide a 2, maybe 3 BP solution to support an infantry assault. I chose 2 BP for simplicity sake, but I'm not married to that. However as TRC pointed out, 4 BP is way too strong for what this asset provides.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Top

nealhunt

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:08 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

So, can I take it since you guys are basically discussing variations on the 1BP per unit theme that the consensus opinion is that the 2BP per unit for the Catachans is overpowered?

_________________
Neal

Top

jfrazell

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:29 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:21 pm
Posts: 144

Sorry O great Neal can you reference where that list is?

I have not heard of this list.

_________________
"Advance to the Rear!"

Top

nealhunt

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:42 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

It's on the SG Experimental Rules site.

(and I do believe the mortar teams to be overpowered)

_________________
Neal

Top

semajnollissor

Post subject: Mortar unit proposal

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:43 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm
Posts: 1673
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA

Why not have a formation or unit that uses the same method for determining how many mortars there are that IG infantry companies use for determining how many autocannons there are in the formation. That way, you could effectively have a 0.5BP per stand. In fact, you could just go ahead and list 1/2 or 0.5 BP in their stats, and just state that the number should be rounded up to the nearest whole number.

Top

Print view

Previous topic | Next topic

Page 1 of 3

[ 38 posts ]

Go to page 1, 2, 3 Next

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:

Mortar unit proposal

Who is online