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Proposed Cadia ver2.0
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=34343		 Page 1 of 6
Author:  RugII [ Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Proposed Cadia ver2.0
The following is a proposed update for discussion:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m0tfaf8txjehzbs/Cadians%20ver2.0.pdf?dl=0

It’s quite a change to the 1.x series which is why it’s a discussion piece only.

The perceived issues with Cadia 1.5:

1) Activation span taking advantage of a 175pt core formation

2) Internal balance - there are choices which are simply not worth taking, i.e the Ordinatus and more expensive core options.

3) Poor list flavour with common builds - lots of Kasrkin make the army more like a Tempestus Scions/Inquisition/or niche heavy infantry list. The aim is that the Cadian list can be an alternative, balanced, all arms standard Guard list which can be an alternative to Steel Legion. Being one of the original 3 lists everyone is very familiar with, there is appetite for something a bit different without going for something niche and specialised, like all tanks, airborne, or siege.

Features of 2.0 to address perceived issues:

1) Kaskin are elite troops wearing heavy armour, they don’t walk! All core Kasrkin are mechanised, a support Kasrkin formation can Teleport (Grav-chute). This helps with coatings and flavour.

2) Whiteshields are no longer a cheap 0-1 no brainer formation, they can be included in a variety of ways more than once but don’t allow access to support formation. Their inclusion presents an interesting dilemma as they reduce the initiative of the formation they’re added to.

3) The Ordinatus is cheaper and the crit not as bad, it has also lost Inspiring... the rationale is that it was/is rubbish, the explosion was bigger than a battle titan's but the unit only has a fraction of the firepower, and Cadians do not revere Ordinatus like the Mechanicus so won't find it Inspiring or its loss so hard.

4) The Leman Rus support formation cheaper as there are just better options at 400pts.

5) The Cadian list requires some deviation from Guard pricing norms to get the internal balance right which has always been a difficulty with Guard lists, there are some cheaper than normal upgrades.

I'm tempted to suggest taking Shadowswords out to further differentiate the list from the Steel Legion, it shouldn't be crippling as Cadians are not short on heavy firepower! But this is a discussion for another day.
Author:  McJakub [ Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
I am gonna try this list on Tuesdays, but consideting there are no statistics for all units I assume they are the same as old Cadian list?

Edit:
Isn't Kasrikin Stormlord company too expensive, Chimera (175+4*25=300) and Valkyrie (175+150=325) are priced faily meanwhile adding Stormlord transport to Kasrkin should cost 175+100=275, but they are priced at 375. Even the previous version could take Stormlord Kasrkin for 325 (175+150).

Also can I mix and match transports for Inf Coy? For example buy a Stormlord and 2 Chimeras?

Just making sure, Sabres can be transported by Leviathan?
Author:  RugII [ Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
Looking forward to seeing the results of your test game!

Stats are the same as they were or are in other lists of not in the 2.0 document.

Sabres can be transported in the Leviathan.

We’ve learnt from the Kreig list that massed infantry in super heavy transports is VERY powerful, and 275pts for Kasrkin in a Stormlord would be a steal! We’ve also learned that if upgrades cost too much people will always opt to take additional activations instead. The Kasrkin in Stormlord base core formation has a surcharge, but the Stormlord upgrade is one of those which is discounted.

You can mix transports, adding a Stormlord to a Chimera mounted formation is cheaper than adding Chimera to a Stormlord mounted formation, but the mixed formation is nowhere near as powerful as the pure double or triple Stormlord options.
Author:  McJakub [ Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
One more question, does adding transport have any restircions, for example can I buy stormlor transport for Kasrkin Coy with Chimeras, it would bump the price to regluar Kasrkins with stormlord but have additional chimeras.
I assume you can only buy transport if there isn't enough room to tranaport everybody already.
Author:  RugII [ Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
You’re correct, you can only buy transports if you’ve infantry which don’t already have transports and need transporting; I need to copy the wording from another list to communicate this, it’ll be in the next update!
Author:  lord-bruno [ Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
My first question is why does the Stormlord cost +200 pts for Kasrkin but only +100 pts for Infantry Company?

Shouldn't both be +150?. So Kasrkin+Stormlord at 325 pts (375 seems super expensive), and Inf Co +2 Stormlords at 550 pts (instead of just 450, super cheap no brainer).

Ok partially answered, but why not just +150 for everyone?

Mech Kasrkin+4 Chimera+ Battle Psyker+ 1 Stormlord for 400 pts seems very powerul too.

I will playtest ASAP.
Author:  McJakub [ Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
lord-bruno wrote:
Mech Kasrkin+4 Chimera+ Battle Psyker+ 1 Stormlord for 400 pts seems very powerul too.

Was about to point out the same thing, you can get 4 additional chimeras and psyker for just 25 points compared to regular Stormlord Kasrkin Coy.
Author:  RugII [ Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
Kasrkin in a Stormlord are expensive, but a super heavy core option loaded with troops for any less than 375pts is great when list building.

Infantry Companies with Sabres and Stormlords (500pts) are a concern, my hope is that they’re balanced by their high cost as a core choice in terms of list building (especially if you’re already spending 600pts on an HQ with Sabres), their bad critical hit result, and their low speed. The Stormlord upgrade might need a hike to 125pts, we’ll see. This would make the Kasrkin with Sabres and two Stormlords the same price as Infantry with Sabres in two Stormlords (550pts) witch I’m comfortable with.

Taking access to Shadowswords as a reliable activation could also balance things.

Wherever the Cadian list goes the next version will include Stormlords in the list of units a Commisars CAN’T be added to, so please don’t bother testing that!
Author:  McJakub [ Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
So I had a game today with this force agains Space Marines

600 Regimental HQ + sabres (BTS)
550 Kasrking Coy Stormlord + Stormlord + Psyker + Sabres
275 Kasrkin Coy Chimera

200 Kasrkin
125 Sentinels
125 Sentinels
375 Leman Russ Platoon
200 Stormsword
250 Bombards

150 Thunderbolts
150 Thunderbolts


Against Space Marines

4x Terminators + Chaplin
4x Thunderhawk
3x Land speeder


I won on 3rd turn 3:1 (Blitz, Take and Hold, BTS:BTS)
Even with Reg HQ destroyed I was still able do some serious damage because of Kasrkins in Stormlords, Lemans and Thunderbolts.

Opponent was very annoying with his ground attack, picking best targets and braking or destroying some formations, luckily fot me there were too few marines to stop the mechanised human wave of guard


Generally:
Sabres in Stormlords are a very solid choice giving some much needed AA and providing additional hits where Kasrkins can't reach.
Sentinels are as annoying as always, the fact that they have autocannons means they can shoot some stuff that's further away plus they come in 6.
Personally not a big fan of a Stormsword, I would rather take critically aclaimed Shadowsword or Baneblade.
Teleporting Kasrkins are nice, they give you a lot of flexibility.
Sadly can't give my thoughts on Kasrkins in Chimeras because on the 1st turn they failed to activate and then became broken by ground assaulting terminators.


I think that list is well balanced and if any changes were to be made increasing Stormlord upgrade cost would make the list more consistent with pricing and wouldn't change the overall cost drastically.

Would still like to see how infantry coy with Stormlords and Sabres would work as well as Kasrkins in Valkyries.

The list kind fits between Krieg and Steel Legion, still relyin on SHTs transporting infantry but not with the same quantity as Krieg and having more similar support options to Steel Legion.
Author:  RugII [ Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
Thanks for the report, your list is what I’d hoped would appeal to people looking at using the list. I’m grateful that you didn’t use a Shadowsword as they are on the hit list, the army has the potential to be very tough and any opportunity to differentiate from the Kreig and SL lists is worth taking IMO.

How did you find having no scouts or garrisons? That was a pretty brutal marine list!
Author:  McJakub [ Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
One Terminator detachment was sitting doing nothing on one objective the whole game, I broken 2 Land Speeders very quickly and despite big losses (having my Kasrking Coy broken 1st turn with 2 units left, Reg HQ broken on 1st turn too and didn't regroup on the 2nd turn) my Stormlord Kasrkin coy and Lemans killed off some terminators, 2 Thunderhawks didn't activate in 2nd turn and sentinels somehow survied and captured Blitz and that secured victory for me.
Author:  lord-bruno [ Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
McJakub wrote:



The list kind fits between Krieg and Steel Legion, still relyin on SHTs transporting infantry but not with the same quantity as Krieg and having more similar support options to Steel Legion.


I think you are right but I would go a bit further. While the 1.XX Cadian list is quite unique, this one totally overlaps , and even overrides , Steel Legion (lots of mech infantry in Chimeras and Valkyries, plenty of armour, and practically the same support choices) and also a good chunk of the Krieg theme (hordes of infantry + infantry in WE + cheap artillery).
Author:  fruitbat [ Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
Rug, you keep mentioning Shadowswords being removed from this list. So that leaves the only TK in the list being from the one-shot deathstrikes, correct?
Author:  RugII [ Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
fruitbat wrote:
Rug, you keep mentioning Shadowswords being removed from this list. So that leaves the only TK in the list being from the one-shot deathstrikes, correct?


That’s correct. Steel Legion have a lot of access to TK and it’s a feature of most SL lists so I’m keen for Cadians to not have that, they do have plenty of access to MW though! Likewise SL have lots of scouts, but Cadians don’t.

I’m happy to hear suggestions for a formation or missile type to replace Deathstrikes, though it’s not something on the radar at the moment.
Author:  RugII [ Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
lord-bruno wrote:
McJakub wrote:



The list kind fits between Krieg and Steel Legion, still relyin on SHTs transporting infantry but not with the same quantity as Krieg and having more similar support options to Steel Legion.


I think you are right but I would go a bit further. While the 1.XX Cadian list is quite unique, this one totally overlaps , and even overrides , Steel Legion (lots of mech infantry in Chimeras and Valkyries, plenty of armour, and practically the same support choices) and also a good chunk of the Krieg theme (hordes of infantry + infantry in WE + cheap artillery).


The 1.x series and 2.0 Cadian list do all the same things except there used to be an option to abuse 175pt core formations. High activation count isn’t a great unique trait as it makes for tedious opposition, being horribly out activated isn’t much fun or all that interesting, it’s very much play by numbers.

It’d be good to further chip away at the similarities in support choices but I didn’t want to propose changing too much too quickly. Ideas:

Change Thunderbolts for Lightenings. This removes AP firepower from the air section which is not good for late game but buffs AT firepower.

Change out “3 Bombards or 3 Manticores” for 250pts for “3 Bombards or 6 Medusa” for 250pts. This would create two artillery formations, one for barrage and one for siege which parallel one another, it builds on Cadia’s abundant MW firepower and also removes the ubiquitous Manticore formation seen in almost ever SL tournament list.

Deathstrikes are another possible target for removal purely due to the fact they provide a function and reach it would be good for SL to have but not Cadians. I don’t like how Cadians can pull off exactly the same Vulture shield strip Deathstrike finish combo as SL.
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