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Proposed Cadia ver2.0

 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:02 am 
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lord-bruno wrote:
fruitbat wrote:
I actually don't mind the idea of the medusa.. was thinking these with cut-down barrels:
https://www.onslaughtmini.com/terran-fe ... tanks.html

but, while I can see the speed of 20, I don't understand the 6+ armour... basilisks have 5+ and are essentially the same vehicle, aren't they?


Basilisk have 5+ because they represent the Fully enclosed Armageddon Pattern.

Medusas and other similar vehicles are 6+ because they are open topped.


This. It does mean we can move saves between 6+ and 5+ to get the unit to balance in the list though.

Medusa are tricky to use but they can be undeniably potent. The first use that comes to mind is putting them on OW next to an objective.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:55 am 
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fruitbat wrote:
I had a big reply, but it was lost when the site dropped yesterday.

So, my opponent liked the whiteshield change. Probably best if you don't ask what he thought of the other changes.

I like the option of the stormblade. Should not have to sacrifice shadowsword for it though.


I got back on the Cadia bandwagon because I wanted to use my bus. I like the model, but not enough to play a deliberately crippled list to field it. SL have long been considered the sub-par guard option. I like that you're working to improve it (baneblade changes etc), but if it's the most appealing guard list, that just means the others have been deliberately downgraded. Makes little sense to me.

At this stage I think I can still build a fun and competitive Cadian list, just need to try a few iterations. I'd be concerned to see all of the 1.5x appeal lost in 2.x


There’s part of me that wishes the 1.5 Cadian list was made tournament legal so the attitude that the Cadian list is being crippled is seen in the light it should be. If a 1.5 Cadian list was taken to the European Championship there’d have been a lot of very annoyed people, it was overpowered and open to massive abuse, to some extent you’re going to have to take my word on that though I’ve a few demonstration ideas in mind if it comes to it.

175pts for 8 infantry units (with all the benefits that entails) with good initiative, good AP and AT shooting, good armour, and access to good upgrades and Shadowswords for support.... is way too cheap. A few lists have this problem (Ferals and Ghaz’s Horde) but usually it’s with a model which isn’t all that available, but anyone with lots of Guard infantry models can just “counts as” them as Kasrkin. When you can squeeze 21 quality formations in an army it raises concerns.

So the Cadian list has been crippled, it can no longer activation and model popcorn, but the list can still do everything else it could before (and more) and is still risking being overpowered. Superheavy transports always throw up balance problems, we’ve never got Kreig quite right and have settled at a point where certain tournament players have simply taken the position that they won’t take particular builds anymore as it’s no fun for anyone anymore. Cadia threats to open that old wound.

What were the aspects of 1.5 that appealed that 2.0 doesn’t have?

The Steel Legion list is still very competitive and has its share of podium finishes and has been for years without using the formations, upgrades, and units that have been buffed. The changes were for internal balance and don’t really make them any more or less competitive.

All feedback is helpful, even if it’s negative, opponent‘s views are especially useful!


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:13 pm 
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What's the meta "no fun" Krieg list?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:07 pm 
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Triple Gorgon deathstars come to mind. Glad that's gone.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:42 pm 
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McJakub wrote:
What's the meta "no fun" Krieg list?


As Jimmy says, variations on this depending on the community you're playing (EUK, NetEA,EpicFr etc), but even just two big Gorgon formations are problematic:

REGIMENTAL HQ [575] Death Korps Supreme Commander, 19 Death Korps Infantry units, Gorgon Siege Transporters (2 Gorgons)
INFANTRY COMPANY [475] Death Korps Commander, 19 Death Korps Infantry units, Gorgon Siege Transporters (2 Gorgons)
INFANTRY COMPANY [475] Death Korps Commander, 19 Death Korps Infantry units, Gorgon Siege Transporters (2 Gorgons)
SUPER-HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200] Shadowsword
SUPER-HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200] Shadowsword
SUPER-HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200] Shadowsword
DEATH RIDER SCOUT PLATOON [175] 6 Death Korps Rough Rider units (with 'scout' ability)
ARTILLERY BATTERY [200] 3 Earthshaker Platforms, 3 Tractors
SUPER-HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200] Stormblade

Titan/Air Third
THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150] 2 Thunderbolts
THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150] 2 Thunderbolts

It just rolls across the table and there's very little you can do to stop it! Cadians can do something very similar.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:56 pm 
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Put a silo in there instead of earthshaker and that says "I don't want to have friends" ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:50 pm 
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It may be the coffee talking, but I think I've identified the disconnect here.

Rug, you mention wanting Cadia to be "tournament legal" so we can see how bad it is. For most (if not all) of the Australian tournaments, it is. We have long allowed developmental lists into the comp mix. It's a good environment to see how they shake out. It has been taken to both the big east coast Oz comps (Castle Assault and Cancon) by different players over different years, and has not caused a ruckus.

Now, here's the bit where all the UK players have a shot at us employing the DBAD rule in list design at the big comps. BUT - you've just mentioned above that there are DKOK players self-selecting not to "BAD" and bring the worst list. Why would that be then?


Not offering a solution here, because I honestly think there isn't one - I think it really does come down to different regional mindsets and we've been here before without resolution.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:19 am 
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DBAD?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:43 am 
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Don't be a D***

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:22 am 
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Cadia 1.5x was the most flexible IG list, but that doesn't always mean "most poweful" (hey look at that Krieg list, it is just bricks advancing).

Cadia 1.5x just ignores the rigid IG company and command structures. Ok, popcorn armies aren't fun, but these guys have an actual 15cm threat range..(+ the annoying command stand shot, that I suggested to remove on the other thread, upgrading it to Kasrkin Command) :-\

Anyways, making them "Mech" Cadia, even more elite, seems pretty appealing to me. But internal consistency please (all Stormlord upgrades must cost the same, +150/SHT, as all Chimeras, etc).

And maybe it is different in other metas, but having BTS and Supreme Commander in the same (slow) formation is a HUGE weakness for IG.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:37 am 
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The UK has a DBAD rule too but it’s rarely enforced because it’s so subjective and it’s very difficult to apply fairly, recently there’s been a preference for changing the army list (Space Marine Thunderhawk restrictions and Ork airforce restrictions in the EUK lists).

At least a couple of years ago Australia had a different interpretation of a number of rules (namely around LOS and terrain), this is because of the ambiguous language in the original GW rules, Vassal has helped but there’s still risk relying too heavily on testing out of Australia as your meta is subtly different. Again, I’d cite Kreig as an example. How you apply the DBAD rule may also be a factor. It’d be good if the US and EU followed Australia’s example and allowed some lists still in development to a tournament or two, it has happened before in the past!

Players are self restricting with Kreig as it’s just a bit rude to keep turning up to an international tournament and getting a clean sweep, in local tournaments where people are aware of how the list works I don’t think they have the same qualms!


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:26 am 
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lord-bruno wrote:

Anyways, making them "Mech" Cadia, even more elite, seems pretty appealing to me. But internal consistency please (all Stormlord upgrades must cost the same, +150/SHT, as all Chimeras, etc).



If by upgrades costing the same you mean an upgrade must cost the same as what it does in the formation entry this isn’t going to happen as it is being moved away from universally.

When you pay for, say six guardsmen as a formation you are getting an activation as well as six guardsmen. With six guardsmen as an upgrade you’re only getting the guardsmen. On the flip side if a formation is being made significantly stronger by an upgrade, i.e it’s numbers make it invulnerable or allow it to cover multiple objectives it also doesn’t make sense that the upgrades cost the same as for the formation.

This has long been a problem with Steel Legion, the upgrades were overpriced so never taken.

There will almost certainly be movement in the price of the Stormlord upgrade and the Kasrkin core formation including a Stormlord, but this will be independent of each other and with testing.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:08 pm 
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Cadia should be flexible the theme being NATO vs SLs Warsaw pact. Meaning seeing things like more independent support formations than SL. That being said, core Kasrkin don't sit right with me.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:46 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Cadia should be flexible the theme being NATO vs SLs Warsaw pact. Meaning seeing things like more independent support formations than SL. That being said, core Kasrkin don't sit right with me.


That’s largely represented by the more substantial support formations available and smaller core options.

I’m not sure removing Kasrkin from the core entirely will sit well with those who have got used to 1.5!


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:29 pm 
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I still belive that Elysians could take Cadian 1.5 stlye list with a lot of smaller cheaper fomations but with not nearly as good support options as other guards lists.

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