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Which ground based AA unit option to you want in the Elysian list
Poll ended at Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:31 am
1: Elysian Light Air transportable Drop AA gun towed by an all terain vehicle LV 33%  33%  [ 6 ]
2: Sabre Weapons Platform towed by a Chimera unit 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
3: Just the Sabre Weapon Platform 11%  11%  [ 2 ]
4: Blitzen AA Gun towed by Brunhilde gun Tractor 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
5: Elysian AA Taurus Venator variant 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
6: No ground based AA formations at all 56%  56%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 18

Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List?

 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:54 pm 
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I vote for no ground AA. The list does not need it and it is Ok for lists to have obvious weakness and many work this way. If not, I vote for the Elysian Sabres which were talked about on the list's thread.

Deb wrote:
Thought of that, but Norto recommended I remove it, if I want any ground based AA.

Lists that do not have ground based AA, like the old Dark Eldar list tended to loose all its Aircraft very quickly. Having faced off against, and used Feral Orks with at least 9 x range 45cm, AA5+ MW in a feral army. Aircraft get shot down very easily. It is not the only list out there that can make any air cover or a list with lots of Thunderhawks, or their equivelant scared to fly in.

Tau have their barracuda fighters, a Skyray squadron with 3 x 2 range 60cm AA5+ shots. They can also add a skyray, another 2 range 60cm AA5+ shots to a Tau Fire Cadre team. Space Marines (generic) can add hunters to 6 of their formations which gives then a nice cheap range 60cm AA4+, backed up by Thunderbolt Squadrons, and they can still make drop assaults.

There are plenty of lists that can just cover the board in a mesh of AA cover, though most can cover about 1/2 to 2/3 of the table. making this lists use of Lightnings, a risky option. Atleast the old Dark Eldar had fighters with a 4+ save (not that helped against MW AA). and jinking does not help if the AA ignores your armour and cover save anyway.

Plus light ground based AA is very thematic to lists like this.

I will just not take the option where you place one fighter squadron on CAP instead of placing one garrison on Overwatch.


Leaving aside Ferals, which are an extreme example and a exception to the norm, if you really think it is not enough as it is on Vanaheim, the Ork way can be used to let them take bigger formations of air (4 for example), which can go through almost any ground AA and destroy it even if some die. Maybe take it further and make the formations of 3 or 4 at a reduced cost, so both it does not become an air circus because the activations are restricted and there is no Thunderhawks Batlecannons or other similar trickeries, but takes into account those restrictions and the fact more aircraft will be destroyed.
The air bubbles are not so bad either, as they are killable formations, save on newer lists with forced AA on WE but that's a problem of those lists, and it is something this kind of list can deal with usually. Just Vultures+retain with air can do lots of damage to ground AA. Take into account that the NetEA lists are mainly for balanced lists, which will not take huge quantities of AA, and there will always be bad match ups.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:52 pm 
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Agreed with Deb. If for no other reason real Airborne and Air Assault units have some kind of AAA/ADA.

Making Saber Platforms with Planetfall is an easy fix as jimmy zimms said.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:16 am 
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I do not want to spam large formatins of lightnings and lightning strike fighters for a super cheap price. I know Orks can get upto 9 dakka jets in a formation for 450 points, but seriously how many armies out there really use more than 2 or 3 air formatins of fighters and fighter bombers where the points can be spent on the rest of the army.

The problem is that many armies can add to their base formations and even some of their support formations with a single ground based AA unit, which can hide in the formation. Some like most armoured or seige guard and Tau for example have dedicated support formations, that are fairly cheap for what you get, and can be used to wipe out entire air squadrons.

A back up AA formation based on the ground can be a pleasent help when you have just had your last aircraft (lone unit) fail to come on the table after you have had the rest wiped out by long range 5+ AA or mid range 4+ AA units. Atleast with it around the enemy have to be careful where they send their own aircraft, and it might even help keep those broken formations alive a bit longer.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:26 am 
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No ground AA is an intentional challenge but works fine in the Vannaheim and Dark Eldar lists. Dedicated formations of AA vehicles are often fragile and can often be alpha striked by Vulture formations or the the like garrisoned forward early in the game. Lightnings also have longer weapon ranges than Thunderbolts: 30-45 compared to 15-30 so in more situations you’ll be able to position your Lightnings at a distance to be able to attack the edges of a formation with a single AA vehicle in the middle without getting attacked on the way in.

If you are insistent on including some ground AA perhaps add an AA dedicated Vulture variant? Call it a 'Vulture Skystrike' say and have it be identical to a normal Vulture but removing the 2 x single use Hellstrike Missiles and replacing them with 2 x Skystrike Missile 45cm AA5+ one-shot. Make it a 0-1 free or 25 point replacement in a Vulture formation. Preferably just keep it for Vultures and not core Valkyrie formation, so Elysians armies will likely have less than average numbers of ground AA and still largely rely on fighters for AA as per the background.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:33 pm 
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I am not sure that is such a good idea. Being a 1 shot weapon, you might not get a shot off before the vulture is taken out. Plus putting it in a formation dedicated to taking out enemy units, plus those missiles are probably going to be FXF arc.

I do not know why so many are against the ground AA, when it such a thematic thing for Airborne and air cav forces taking their own light AA with them from WWII up to modern times. Perhaps some people just want to play a list that is designed to break apart and get killed off easily, and hope the games does not go past turn 3, so they might be able to get a tied game.

As an alternative you could upgrade one of the drop troopers in a Elydian drop troops company to a Elysian Drop AA Missie trooper for +25 points. You could always have a formation of 4 Elysian drop AA missile Troopers for 100 points instead of the Sabre option. They would has Lascarbines, and Skyfire Missile launchers no save, CC 6+ FF5+ and normal Skyfire missile say 45cm AA 5+.

There are alternatives to having a ground based AA formation. But I prefer to not use Vultures, especially with a 1 shot FXF missile. It looks like most of the people that agree with the need for a ground based AA like the Sabre and light gun tractor option.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:03 pm 
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Deb wrote:
I do not want to spam large formatins of lightnings and lightning strike fighters for a super cheap price. I know Orks can get upto 9 dakka jets in a formation for 450 points, but seriously how many armies out there really use more than 2 or 3 air formatins of fighters and fighter bombers where the points can be spent on the rest of the army.


It doesn't need to be 9 neither be super cheap That would raise other issues or step onto Ork's feet. For example 4 Thunderbolts for 250-275 or 3 for 200, but it does not matter much, it is another idea to bring to the table. I do not get what are you talking about on the second part. Also, this.

GlynG wrote:
No ground AA is an intentional challenge but works fine in the Vannaheim and Dark Eldar lists. Dedicated formations of AA vehicles are often fragile and can often be alpha striked by Vulture formations or the the like garrisoned forward early in the game. Lightnings also have longer weapon ranges than Thunderbolts: 30-45 compared to 15-30 so in more situations you’ll be able to position your Lightnings at a distance to be able to attack the edges of a formation with a single AA vehicle in the middle without getting attacked on the way in..


Deb wrote:
I do not know why so many are against the ground AA, when it such a thematic thing for Airborne and air cav forces taking their own light AA with them from WWII up to modern times. Perhaps some people just want to play a list that is designed to break apart and get killed off easily, and hope the games does not go past turn 3, so they might be able to get a tied game.

It is about having interesting lists that play different from each other, and designed weaknesses are a part of it. Lists with no weakness tend to be dull and boring, and only work for ''munchkining'' purposes. Also, as was put up before, we have to take into account that this is Epic, not WWII and as such that does not apply.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:59 pm 
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Deb wrote:
Being a 1 shot weapon, you might not get a shot off before the vulture is taken out. Plus putting it in a formation dedicated to taking out enemy units, plus those missiles are probably going to be FXF arc.

You'd probably have the formation out of sight to start, perhaps pop up to shoot and probably have the AA one in the middle of the formation so they may be able to take some damage and still be able to get their AA shot(s) off. Vultures are skimmers not WE or aircraft so they don't have fire arcs, the models can fire in any direction. The Hellstrike missiles on the current ones don't have arcs. Leave it if you don't like it though; it was just an idea that crossed my mind.

Quote:
It looks like most of the people that agree with the need for a ground based AA like the Sabre and light gun tractor option.
Do they? Currently 59% of respondents to your poll so far have gone for the no ground AA at all option...


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 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:00 pm 
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Again I think Saber Platform with Planetfall is good.

Of course the 59% that think otherwise don't have to use it and/or just make it an optional rule ... 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:45 pm 
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Quote:
It looks like most of the people that agree with the need for a ground based AA like the Sabre and light gun tractor option.


Quote:
Do they? Currently 59% of respondents to your poll so far have gone for the no ground AA at all option...


If you understood what I was saying, I was referring to those that wanted a ground based AA, not those that did not want it. And I was reffering to only one vote for sabre on its own dropped in, while the rest of the ones who wanted a ground based AA decided on the first option.

I referrenced those that did not want a ground based AA in the second paragraph.

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Last edited by Deb on Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:24 am 
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Abetillo wrote:
It doesn't need to be 9 neither be super cheap That would raise other issues or step onto Ork's feet. For example 4 Thunderbolts for 250-275 or 3 for 200, but it does not matter much, it is another idea to bring to the table. I do not get what are you talking about on the second part. Also, this.


I was not saying I was going to copy the orks use of 9 aircraft, but the current 4 aircraft, at 300 points might have had a points reduction. so you culd fit 3 of them and a spaceship within the 1000 points 1/3 limit for a tournament list.

Abetillo wrote:
It is about having interesting lists that play different from each other, and designed weaknesses are a part of it. Lists with no wekness tend to be dull and boring, and only work for ''munchkining'' purposes. Also, as was put up before, we have to take into account that this is Epic, not WWII and as such that does not apply.



Ver 3 of this list is just a teleporting version of the Dark Eldar army (say munchkin and you will be correct), where the skimmer LV transports have been replaced by AV Skimmer transports that cost more, and still have short/mid ranged weapons. The teleport was one way to get them in close, which the self planetfall also does only you have to plan carefully before the game begins (before armies are even placed down). The Dark Eldar used their WE self planetfall transports in a similar manner (but they cost a lot ot purchase).

Also Epic is modern warefare where they still have man portable ground based AA rockets. I know it is not WWII, that was used as an example to show that even armies from times where they had less techniology thought to equip their drop armies with ground based AA. In fact Epic is in the far future where, even though technology has stunted a little, it is still advance enough to provide ground based man portable AA rockets, and droppable AA platforms.

Plus I am not trying to create an army that that is munchkining other armies, just one that does not have too many weakness, so it performs , okay at tournaments (as it could never be a top tier army without benefits like armour saves for infantry, weapons with ranges over 30cm for most of the force, easy to break because most of the formations (unless you spend heaps of points to add upgrades) they break and die off quickly.

I think 3 weaknesses is more than enough for any army to deal with. Add in reliance on aircraft with a 6+ save for their AA defence, and the army has another disadvantage. Ground based AA can be hidden in a formation, or set up when you drop it to move into terrain to get some measure of protection.

This army does have flavour, a theme, a drop list supported by some advancing forces in valkyries and some taurus and sentinels. It also includes built in weaknesses. I was asked to start this version, only because Ver 3, which still has too many weaknesses, has the potential for spamming of teleporting made it hard to deal with, and that seemed unthematic.

I was specifically asked to replace the mass Teleport with Planet fall or self planetfall. That has been done. I tweeked ita little to give it a personality, a flavour that fits in with its theme. I dropped the high price of the sentinels, as they were about 38 points a sentinel where a penitent engine which counts as an AV not a LV, has infiltrate, fearless, a 4+ save, an invul save, and Flamers a MW on its arms cost only 35 points.

Changed the veterans to Elysian Veterans to make them the close combat element for a formation that can be added individually (0-2). I made the old role of the veterans into the Grey Ghosts, a dedicated sniper scout formation. Limited it to only 1 formation, and dropped rules like infiltratethat did not fit the role of the grey ghost. Yes they got the +1 cover save, and FS to account for their booby traps, but it makes the formation a good garrison. They costs 50 points a model, and can still be wiped out by someone driving up with a Hellhound squadron shooting at them with IC weapons. Or you cuold just use some form of artillery that has tthe IC rule, and they are paste, as they have no armour save. As an option I still left the Scout senitel as an option for garrison, if you did not like the Grey Ghosts.

Comparing them to Dark Eldar and their reliance on aircraft for AA defence. They do not do well when they are faced with armies like AMTL, IG mechanised/armoured/artillery themed, Tau, Necrons (who just do not die, and have that damned living metal), and armies that have lots of opportunities for ground based AA.

I have lost so many games where my 2 squadrons of razorwing fighters and one of void raven FB were wiped out even with their 4+ saves. Dark Eldar aircraft weapons ranges are short as well, and they could not stop Thunderhawk gunships from ground strafing my broken formations, even by sitting my aircraft over my troops (after intercepting and enemy thunderblt squadron), as the tunderhawks had weapons that out ranged mine by over 30cm.

I see a ground based AA even one with a 30cm range as a deterant, and as I have found out, opponents forget they are there, and fly right over them to finish off a broken formation. This army might have a lot of activations, but they come down piece meal, and are wiped out or broken very quickly. The advantage of activations is not really an advantage, if your opponent just keeps breaking your army's unbroken formations, and keeps killing off the broken ones thorugh BMs.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:44 pm 
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I agree … whether in the game or in RL you need ADA/AAA …

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 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:15 am 
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I had considered offering another option for the ground based AA (air defence artillery/anit-air artillery). I knew it would be rejected outright because it has no predecessor in any of the armies in Epic. Only in 6th or 7th edition 40K did they introduce a man portable AA missile launcher and it cost extra points to add them to a space marine missile launcher.

Since the NERC, and thir conventions disallows any new form of unit being introduced without approval. A unit like an infantry unit armed with a missile launcher that has the option for AA, would be dismissed before it had a chance to be considered.

What I had thought of proposing was an infantry unit called the Elysian droppable AA Missile defense unit. It would be like all other Elysian units in that it had no armour save, could self planet fall, and moved 15cm. Its weapon system would be a range 45cm missile launcher that was AP5+/AT6+/AA5+. The units CC would be 6+ and FF 5+, as their secondary weapons would be Lasrifles.

I had considered adding them at a maximum of 1 for 25 points to a core Elysian drop company, and the Elysian Regimental Command Company. Alternatively you could have the option of a Elysian Air defence Platoon. It would have a Commander, 4 Elysian Drop AA Missile Defence Units, and 3 Elysian Drop Units for 250 pints, and limiting them to 1 per 1000 points as a support formaton. I am not sure if I would have offeref valkyries as an upgrade.

So you can see it is a fair option, but would have been dismissed outright before it could even have been considered, because of the uproar over the naming conventions between a sabre and an Elysian 20mm Droppable light AA gun, I did not bother introducing it as an option.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:55 pm 
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IMO … go with the droppable Sabre platform, don't even need to have a motor transport. It can be moved as INF.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:01 am 
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I know, but 10cm rather than 15cm does make a difference, especially when you have to drop, deviate, then run to cover. Or if you have to run away when broken and have to kee more than 15cm away from an enemy, who if they position well have left only one opening, and you can not get everyone more than 15cm.

I worry sometimes about these things because when I have played with some units that are slow, or very slow, they tend to get wiped out from being run down, r the enemy is so close they just need to breath on you and the broken troops are dead.

I will consider it as an option. The gun tractor at least has a move of something like 35cm or if carrying the sabre, its speed is reduced down to 20cm. whuich when you consider double is 40cm, the sabres and gun tractors cah get outside of the 15cm "we ran you down so now you are dead" distance.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:10 pm 
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every list has a weakness

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