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Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development

 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:15 pm 
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Wanders off to get a 20mm flak gun designed.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:52 am 
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To avoid making up new units please can we use Sabres for the AA using the Artillery Tractors from the Barran list. They can be modelled how you want but ensure there’s strong continuity through the Guard lists, it also maximises the opportunity for those with existing collections to be able to use the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:04 am 
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I like them how they are if that mean anything Deb. Cheap 30cm AA sounds good when baran and cadians have different options already. Maybe the cadians could adopt yours.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:40 am 
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RugII wrote:
To avoid making up new units please can we use Sabres for the AA using the Artillery Tractors from the Barran list. They can be modelled how you want but ensure there’s strong continuity through the Guard lists, it also maximises the opportunity for those with existing collections to be able to use the list.



Are the Sabres and their tractors air transportable? No. Does the Barran Seige masters list use them? No. They use Blitzen AA guns which come with either Emplacements or towed by Brunhilde tow vehicles.

I was looking for something the air cav Valkyries/Skytalons could transport, or could move along the table thematic to an air drop /air cav list. Even if you did not have the appropriate minis in your proxy army, and only had the gun tractors and sabres, you could say - these represent the ketten-krads and the 20mm AA flak guns. I think any opponent will happily agree for a proxy tow vehicle and AA Flak gun, as a stand in for the Elysian units. I know I would.

If you look at the formation, they are easily broken, cost too much for the short range fire power you get. It is a way of getting a light short ranged ground based thematic AA unit on the table to supliment the core forces. In all likelyhood they will not be on the table for long (easily broken and killed off). But they might last that one turn longer than you expect, and put a BM on the an enemy aircraft, maybe even kill one off.

I thought I was creating a list that was for an air assault/ drop army list. When I initially borrowed the Blitzen from the Harkoni Warhawks list(which I thought was a good idea), I was told to drop them and not create a formation.

Now I create a viable thematic but not overly powerful, expensive light AA unit and I am told to borrow a unit from a non Drop Assault list. I can not win.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:57 am 
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This is the Elysian Drop List army I eventually plan to build. I have already put an order in that will get me part of the way there.

My proposed Elysian drop Troop Regiment Army collection – 9575 Points.

Core Companies – 12 formations – 3225 points
375 pts – Elysian Regimental – HQ, Elysian Supreme Commander, 7 Drop Troops, Commissar, 4 Valkyries [BTS]
225 pts – Elysian Drop Troop Company – Commander, 7 Drop Troops
225 pts – Elysian Drop Troop Company – Commander, 7 Drop Troops
225 pts – Elysian Drop Troop Company – Commander, 7 Drop Troops
225 pts – Elysian Drop Troop Company – Commander, 7 Drop Troops
225 pts – Elysian Drop Troop Company – Commander, 7 Drop Troops
225 pts – Elysian Drop Troop Company – Commander, 7 Drop Troops
225 pts – Elysian Drop Troop Company – Commander, 7 Drop Troops
300 pts – Elysian Drop Troop Company – Commander, 7 Drop Troops, 4 Valkyries
350 pts – Elysian Drop Troop Company – Commander, 7 Drop Troops, 4 Vendettas
350 pts – Elysian Drop Troop Company – Commander, 7 Drop Troops, 4 Vendettas
275 Pts – Elysian Drop Mortar Company – Commander, Elysian Drop Trooper, 4 Elysian Drop Mortars, 3 Valkyries

Support Platoons/Squadrons – 0-2 per company – 24 formations – 3700 points
300 pts – Vulture Squadron – 4 x Vulture Gunships
300 pts – Vulture Squadron – 4 x Vulture Gunships
300 pts – Vulture Squadron – 4 x Vulture Punisher Gunships
100 pts – Elysian Drop Sentinel Squadron – 4 Elysian Drop Sentinels
100 pts – Elysian Drop Sentinel Squadron – 4 Elysian Drop Sentinels
100 pts – Elysian Drop Sentinel Squadron – 4 Elysian Drop Sentinels
175 pts – Elysian Drop Sentinel Squadron – 4 Elysian Drop Sentinels, 2 Sky Talons
175 pts – Elysian Drop Sentinel Squadron – 4 Elysian Drop Sentinels, 2 Sky Talons
100 pts – Elysian Drop Scout Sentinel Squadron – 4 Elysian Scout Drop Sentinels
100 pts – Elysian Drop Scout Sentinel Squadron – 4 Elysian Scout Drop Sentinels
125 Pts – Elysian Drop Rocket Sentinel Squadron – 4 Elysian Drop Rocket Sentinels
125 Pts – Elysian Drop Rocket Sentinel Squadron – 4 Elysian Drop Rocket Sentinels
200 pts – Elysian Drop Rocket Sentinel Squadron – 4 Elysian Drop Rocket Sentinels, 2 Sky Talons
100 pts – Taurus Squadron – 4 Elysian Tauros Venators
100 pts – Taurus Squadron – 4 Elysian Tauros Venators
100 pts – Taurus Squadron – 4 Elysian Tauros Venators
100 Pts – Taurus Squadron – 4 Elysian Tauros
100 Pts – Taurus Squadron – 4 Elysian Tauros
225 Pts – Taurus Squadron – 4 Taurus, 4 Sky Talons
275 Pts – Elysian Storm Trooper Company – Elysian Commander, 7 Elysian Storm Troopers
300 Pts – Grey Ghost Platoon – 6 Grey Ghosts
100 Pts – Elysian Regimental AA Platoon – 3 Ketten-Krad towed 20mm AA guns
100 Pts – Elysian Regimental AA Platoon – 3 Ketten-Krad towed 20mm AA guns
200 Pts – Elysian Regimental AA Platoon – 3 Ketten-Krad towed 20mm AA guns, 3 Valkyries


Company Upgrades – 12 Upgrades – 650 Points
25 Pts – Elysian Drop Hardened Verterans – 1 Drop Hardened Veteran unit
25 Pts – Elysian Drop Hardened Verterans – 1 Drop Hardened Veteran unit
75 Pts – Elysian Cyclops – 3 Elysian Cyclops
75 Pts – Elysian Cyclops – 3 Elysian Cyclops
75 Pts – Elysian Cyclops – 3 Elysian Cyclops
75 Pts – Elysian Cyclops – 3 Elysian Cyclops
50 Pts – Drop Fire Support Platoon – 2 Drop Fire Support Units
50 Pts – Drop Fire Support Platoon – 2 Drop Fire Support Units
50 Pts – Drop Fire Support Platoon – 2 Drop Fire Support Units
50 Pts – Drop Fire Support Platoon – 2 Drop Fire Support Units
50 Pts – Drop Fire Support Platoon – 2 Drop Fire Support Units
50 Pts – Drop Fire Support Platoon – 2 Drop Fire Support Units

1/3 allocation incl Allies, Spaceships and Aircraft – 10 formations – 2000 points
150 Pts – Space Ship – 1 x Luna Class Cruiser
300 Pts – Lightning Wing – 4 Lightning Fighters
300 Pts – Lightning Wing – 4 Lightning Fighters
150 Pts – Light Strike Fighters – 2 Lightning Strike Fighters
150 Pts – Light Strike Fighters – 2 Lightning Strike Fighters
150 Pts – Marauder Bomber – 1 Marauder Bomber
150 Pts – Marauder Bomber – 1 Marauder Bomber
175 Pts – Marauder Destroyer – 1 Marauder Destroyer
175 Pts – Marauder Destroyer – 1 Marauder Destroyer
300 Pts – Line Breaker Squadron – 6 Imperial Guard Infantry Units, 3 Chimeras, 3 Leman Russ Conquerors


As I sad a while back. I am planning on building a really small Elysian army.

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Last edited by Deb on Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:41 pm 
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Yeah I don't see anything preventing me using my existing platforms in a count-as capacity as Deb points out. I get the desire to keep as many common units but due to this list's design, she'd have to create a named variant anyways (to allow transporrt) obviating any benefit of not being a new unit. Stats and cost are obviously up for debating but I think Deb's got the idea correct here.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:21 pm 
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Apparently Elysians use the tarantula, which is air-transportable

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Ta ... Sentry_Gun

And the Sabre is a derivative of the tarantula with AA capability.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Sabre_Gun_Platform

I think using a unit with stats already is a better route than inventing a new one

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:37 pm 
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captPiett wrote:
Apparently Elysians use the tarantula, which is air-transportable

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Ta ... Sentry_Gun

And the Sabre is a derivative of the tarantula with AA capability.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Sabre_Gun_Platform

I think using a unit with stats already is a better route than inventing a new one



I can see where where you are getting at, and the benefits of it, for an elysian army. But even at this early stage, it seems I am rocking the boat with the few changes I have made already.

Maybe they could be added in a later in version 5.X, or if people want to play test them and decide they like them perhaps a little later. If you want to play test tarantulas and sabre platforms yourself, then try it. If you decide to, please use the current stats from various lists. I think Tarantulas and Sabres have a 10cm move? Give some reports. Even if you do, I can not guarantee it will be added. I might get a lot of resistance from others to add them in.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:36 pm 
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Epic is full off abstraction.

The Sabre is the light, AA platform available to guard, it’s going to come in all sort of variants depending on users and forge worlds, it might breakdown in to parts, or have small wheels, or have a slightly different weapon configuration/ weapon calibre etc.... but at the end of the day, in EA, calling them all Sabre Platforms will suffice as every fan of 40k will get the gist of what it is and does.

Similarly we don’t need a new small tow/utility vehicle for every list... the Brunhilde stats broadly represent all of them, and we all already know what it is as does.

Using tested and established stats is also the easiest way to rapidly test and balance lists.

If your vision of Elysians is Orbital Drop Fallschirmjäger you can go for that look when modelling your army, but we’ve got to write a list that is as true to the 40k Elisyians and established Guard canon as possible, not space Nazis. There is no mistaking where a 20mm cannon towed by Kettenkrad is coming from, and it’s not W40k. Granted, it’s obvious 40k borrows heavily from history, but that influence is decreasing, and there needs to be limits. Literally having iconic German WW2 equipment in the list is too far IMO when we already have suitable options.

Who knows, the ERC might see things differently, it’s early days and there’s no urgent need to change things. But if this was to become a sticking point I don’t think Kettenkrads are a defining feature of Elysians or worth digging in over.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:20 pm 
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Well if you want it as a Sabre Weapons Platform, then it will have to be as listed in the Tallarn Desert Raiders 0.8 list. The only one that seems to have them. Everything else has Heavy Fla guns, Hydras, or Blitzen Weapon Platforms.

If I were to do that, then there would be 4 x Sabre Weapons Platforms towed by 4 x Chimera, at a cost of 175 points. Sabres would have a move of 10cm, no save, no CC, a FF of 5+, weapons Twin Flak Autocannon range 30cm, AP4+/AT5+/AA5+, mounted. The Chimeras would be standard, and not able to be carried by Sky Talons.

I am guessing you would not like it if I had the option of having the Sabres carried by Sky talons instead of towed by Chimeras either. Also as they would not have different stats, there would be no need in renaming them. And at that point I would get some one complaining about my using Chimeras in an Elysian droplist.

From their I would have different people arguing about whether the list needs ground based AA, or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:58 pm 
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Or you could give Elysian Sabre Platforms self planetfall and make them transportable by Valkyrie, and an Elysian Light Tractor and Sabre Platform transportable as a pair by Sky Talon? ie a similar approach to Drop Sentinels.

Sabres are described as being broken down into smaller parts for transport, Tarantulas which are the automated version are air transportable and I think can use grav-chutes too. My point is that the background of Sabres allows quite a bit of flexibility in how you include them.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:46 am 
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My predicament is this I am told not to create new units, but use only the units that have been used by other lists that have come before hand. I do not have final say, the Imperial Guard AM has final say. I have also been told to balance the list and and replace the OP in it like spamming the Teleport, which I replaced with Self Planetfall.

If I hold true to what I have been told what to do then I must use what has come before, not alter it, and possibly just rename it. I propose a general poll the options I have found from the various list and see which of these everyone think fits best.

I thik 6 candidates should be put forward the polll.

1: my All terrain LV that comes complete with the light AA gun. I would like to make it all on 1 base making it easier to use, transport, will be able to then transported on a Valkyrie taking up 2 spaces,and is thematic. You could have it on 2 bases, but you will than have to make it drop capable for another 25 point for the 4 guns and their transport. You can rename it an Elysian light Gun tractor and Sabre platform if you want at a cost of 100 points for 4. Give it the same stats as the Sabre

2:The Sabre Platform which will have the only transport I could find for it in the lists, as you do not want Entrenchments. Therefore based on the Tallarn 0.8 list we inlcude the Chimera as the towing vehicle. 4 x Sabres and 4 x Chimeras for 175 points. I can forsee problems with this, choice however. A squadron of 4 Predator Anhihlators with 4 range 45 AT4+, and 8 range 45cm AT5+ weapons shoots at the Sabres and Chimeras, nad because they are 2 different unit types elects under the rules (as they are allowed) to shoot only the Sabres. The sabres get no -1 to hit from the Chimeras, they get no cover save, or any save at all. Once you destroy the Sabres, the formation breaks automatically and can then be hunted down, and be BM'd to death. I am not a fan of this. especially as the Tallarn list is a ground attack list.

3: Just the Sabre which is not towed at all. Reduce the cost down dramatically as the Sabre does not move much, has no armour save, can be shot at by every weapon in range, and has a short 30cm ranged weapon. So I recommend 6 Sabres for 125 points, or 5 Sabres for 100 points. They wold obviiously have the drop capability. This option is manageable, but they are still hopelessly in adequate, easily destroyed,eat up precious points.

4: The only other list that has an inbuilt mobile/towed AA weapons platform. Even though it is another ground assault/seige army is the Baran Siege masters list. I could have used the Mirelli Skyraiders list, but they use Emtrenchments. So we use the Blitzen LV, immobile and has no save, uses a TL Flak Autocannon with a range of 60cm which I think is a tad to long for the Elysian list. They are towed into battle by 4 Bruenhiilde gun tractors. Another LV but thes move only 15cm and have a 6+ save. Armed with a range 30cm Heavy Stubber. I am not a fan of this one either. Not thematic, the guntractor is slow, but it doees solve the problen of separately targeting the Blitzen only as both are LV. Ths option would have 4 of each unit for 150 points.

5: As recommended by moredakka a while back, we allow a variant of the Taurus Venator which has a light AA gun mounted on one of the Venators in a squadron. You could still have it at range 30cm, and all te weak stats of both the Taurus Venator (LV, 6+save), and the short range weapons abilities of the Sabres weapons platform, but it could then be air transportable via Sky Talons. This one I do not mind at all, as you are limiting the AA mount/variant to one per squadron, to reduce the spamming. It also has the protection of the other Taurus, so can not normally be targeted separately, by one weapon system. Ths would still maintain the same points cost as is in the list currently. Unfortunately this means making a change to an established unit/formation, and slightly breaks the rule that have been set down, (even if you rename the variant).

6: I am not a fan of the last option at all. However I put it in for completeness and to encompass everyones views. I believe the list needs some form of light ground based AA unit, however others might think differently. Therefore the last option for the poll is to not include any form of ground based AA uniit. This in my view seriously weakens the list. Like the Dark Eldar list, before it gained the Tormentor class Titan with its short ranged splinter cannon AA5+, it relied completely on the aircraft. If you did not include them, you were doomed to all your formatoins being broken then wiped out by BMs - painfully.

The Elysian list has infantry, lots of units with no save or very poor saves, and units that can not get a cover save. When facing tournament based armies like Edlar (firestorms, Nightwings and Phoenix Fighter bombers), Feral Orks (Wyrdboyz able to be added to Orkasaurus - Warbands and Wild Boyz, upto 3 Steam Gargants, madboyz, Junkabrigades, and boarboyz mobs. Each with a range 45cm MW5+AA. Normal Orks with their cheap Dakka Jets and Flak Wagons. Tau with their Skyrays and Baracuda fighters. Marines with range 60cm Hunters, and their plaethora of fighter aircraft options like Thunderbolts, Sky Talons, and so on. The Elysians Aircraft are going to be gone by turn 2 if you are lucky.

I know they are designed to be a light force who holds out until turn 3 (up to 5) and relies soley on their ability to drop 'enmasse and surprise the enemy. Hopefully hold some ground with smaller sized companies that have shorter ranged weapons, and then get some of their forces relocated if needed by their precious Valkyries and Sky talons which also die easily. If all you have is the Lightnings and Lightning Strike Fighters, then the army is doomed to fail in most of their games just on the quality, weapons range, and manouverability, and special rules like fearless, ATSKNF, etc of their opponents in most armies.

I am not sure if I can set up the pole with my level of access to the website, but I think RugII can. If so I would like the 6 optons to be made available with just the number of units you want to field, their price and their stats so others can make a decision. I know the outcome will not be the final word and the Imperial Guard AM will have final say, but hopefully it might influence the decision.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:18 am 
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RugII wrote:
Or you could give Elysian Sabre Platforms self planetfall and make them transportable by Valkyrie, and an Elysian Light Tractor and Sabre Platform transportable as a pair by Sky Talon? ie a similar approach to Drop Sentinels.

Sabres are described as being broken down into smaller parts for transport, Tarantulas which are the automated version are air transportable and I think can use grav-chutes too. My point is that the background of Sabres allows quite a bit of flexibility in how you include them.


Isn't that just the same as what I was trying to do? Or so similar to it as to be almost the same thing. It is just that mine had a name that was a little different that is all. I was using a half track motor bike, but you could use a quad bike to tow them. The name is not a problem, that can be easily changed. The problem is to get a weapon system that provides around 30cm range of ground based AA that can move at a decent speed either on its own or by being towed, can be dropped into battle or transported into battle via valkyrie or sky talon and is not too expensive, but also not so cheap that it is spammed to hell.

My idea was to have both of them on one base - one unit for ease of use and modelling, but you could have them on 2 bases with one being an Elysian all terrain air transportable gun tractor, the other an Elysian Light AA weapon system which you can call the Sabre weapons platform.

This one need to be decided by the masses.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:29 am 
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This may be a mix up due to semantics, so for clarity let me set out my stall!

All the Imperial Guard lists follow a common approach when it comes to development, it would serve the Elysian list well to do the same. This isn’t just to satisfy me, members of the ERC look to maintain continuity where possible and some developed Guard lists themselves.

The Baran Brunhild, NetEA Krieg Centaur, and the Epic UK Krieg “Imperial Guard Tractor” etc are all the same vehicle with small adjustments to the notes and points between lists. If there is going to be an LV gun tractor this will be the stats which are to be used. These are like the filler/mastic/caulk/sticky plaster of Guard lists!

I am happy for the Sabre to be added to to notes as transportable by the above vehicle.

If there’s going to be an Infantry class light AA gun, it’s going to use the same stats as the Sabre. It can be called whatever, but given it has the same stats as a Sabre calling that would be helpful.

If you prefix any existing guard unit with “Elysian” I’m happy for you to give it “teleport” or “Self Planetfall”.

If you prefix any transport vehicle with “Elysian” I’m happy for it to have its transport notes changed to include units in the Elysian list, including an AA platform. The Tallarn and Cadian list show two slightly different approaches to rules mechanisms for Sabre transport but they’re both elegant and fine.

EA variant lists have limited new rules and unique units, and they attempt to stay canon. There’s no scope for a fast LV with an AA gun in this list, there’s already plenty of new units and rules.

If you want to cut ground AA, add Chimera as transports, have no tractors, or even add Hydras, that’s up to you to put to the community.

It’s my job as Imperial Guard AC to communicate these constraints - I’ve not done a good job of this so far... And help you get exceptions past the ERC if you and the community agree it’s really necessary, from recent experience I can tell you that’s not easy!

My personal view is that you have two options for the ground AA, a Sabre stats platform or nothing; loads of options for how to give it mobility (tractor,S air transports, drop, teleport etc); and a load of options on how it fits in the list (an upgrade, formation, how many, points etc)


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:08 pm 
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RugII wrote:
...
It’s my job as Imperial Guard AC to communicate these constraints - I’ve not done a good job of this so far... And help you get exceptions past the ERC if you and the community agree it’s really necessary, from recent experience I can tell you that’s not easy!

My personal view is that you have two options for the ground AA, a Sabre stats platform or nothing; loads of options for how to give it mobility (tractor,S air transports, drop, teleport etc); and a load of options on how it fits in the list (an upgrade, formation, how many, points etc)


Couldn't agree more.

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