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Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development

 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:43 pm 
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Your primary AA and support should be flyers in this list and should come at discounts and more options than is typical in lists instead of heavier artillery.


jimmys right this needs to be a staple of this list. It might be a conversation we have to shelve for right now but it is something to come back to.

I also see the reasoning that was mentioned above about why the mortar company should be separate. I personally think mortars are the wrong way to do it, but I haven't seem anything about elysians using field artillery(maybe its time to do the EA classic and invent some shit). Stores in Massachusetts are opening up again so I can do more regular gaming hopefully ill get some playtest BR up soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:11 am 
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I am not going to try and invent anything more than the Grey Ghosts as they were needed in the list. The Elysian Mortar teams were already made by forgeworld, as were the Sabre defence platforms, which are closely tied to the Imperial Guard regiments including the Elysians. Both were removed from the Forgeworld range at the same time, leading me to believe they were linked.

I have not found anything specifically relating to the Elysians having a close tie with the Imperial navy and having larger lightning formations in the 40K world. It only seems to have appeared in the Epic Elysian army lists. Even the Vaneheim Air Cav army list from the old Epic UK had formations of 2 lightnings. They did have the special rule about having a formation of lightnings on CAP instead of one of the 2 Garrison formations that can be put on overwatch, which is probably where it was borrowed for the Elysians first Epic list.

I still think the Sabres are required for the list, and you can probably include the Cap/ garrison replacement rule if you think it is necessary. However I think the Lightnings can be kept at squadrons of 2 still. That keeps the list inline with the rest of the Imperial Guard army lists.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:53 pm 
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you don't need a "close tie to the navy" to have more fliers. You have lots of CAS naturally when you're an airmobile force (think US air cav in Vietnam having oodles of Navy and Airforce support to call on as SOP)

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:35 am 
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My two cents (stated prior), I don't think the Grey Ghosts are needed. We didn't have an issue with artillery in previous lists due to the number of Valkyries (which also came with risk/short range). BUT, I also don't think the Grey Ghosts break anything substantially. I'm just not a fan as I like to stick with canon resources and not make up new stuff. Not only have we made up a new non-canon unit, but we've created a new special ability (masters of stealth). If we were to keep them, they should be no different than space marine scouts or Eldar Rangers from a skills perspective (Scout and Sniper being likely special abilities). So they strike two boxes on my "don't do list", non-canon, and non-existing rules.

I also agree, the air support should be standard guard air support - there is nothing special about Elysian's when it comes to air support in the background (they just have more of it as they rely so much no Valkyries which are Imperial Navy assets). Per Zimms comments, think Vietnam air cavalry and how they were supported (which I always believe was the core design philosophy GW used in designing Elysians, but that's just pure opinion/speculation).

Lastly, also stated previously, don't think we needed the sabres. They weren't ever an Elysian thing (just general guard) and I don't personally think they fit in the background. I do think we should be relying on flyers here (even though they may be worse than having AA dedicated assets in the list).

These are all just my personal feelings, and they are mostly rooted in sticking to canonical background of the force and using that as a guiding principal.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:47 am 
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We do need the Grey Ghosts. I could get rid of the master of stealth rule. A previous comment by the ver 3 designer said he thought the list needed something like them, but did not as he thought it might make the list not get through first time. I could also change the Grey Ghosts so they lose some of the things like FS, along with the Masters of Stealth, however their points cost will have to drop to cover this as their durability will drop massively.

Sabres or some ground based AA, whether it be infantry carrying SAMs or the 40K version of it are a must for any mobile dropped list. I was forced to use the Sabres when I wanted to go with a traditionally linked unit, a kettengrad (half track motorbike) towed paired 20mm AA gun as used by the Deutche Fall Schirm Jaeger of WWII.

The SAMs could be a 6 unit platoon of AA Missile armed Elysian troopers as a support choice. This way they can not be suppressed for the purpose of AA, and can be deployed where they are needed, and not have to follow the leader with the rest of the Drop company if they are made as an upgrade. They would also then loose the mounted rule. Space Marines with AA missiles which were introduced in 6th ed 40K are a good example for a precursor for this unit.

I always thought the mass of Lightnings in one squadrons was a waste of points. I had tried them in a few games, and they were shot out of the sky by everything from Hunters, Ork Wyrd boyz on Orkasaurus, Eldar Fire Storms, etc, and enemy inteceptors as they tried to make a bombing run on broken formations or enemy artillery. Even on CAP they were pretty much obliterated by the end of the game which did not generally go past turn 4, and I had 2 squadrons of them as a rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:26 am 
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I think that giving them access to big variety of aircraft would be a good thing. List may lack in ground units but can have solid aircraft choices (really hoping for Avenger as it's an awesome model and stats aint't bad too).
This list has been in develolment for a while now and especially there have been a lot of wierd changes and nobodg really agrees on anything.
Also you seem to pick and choose fluff where you want to, you seem so opposed to emphasis on flyers yet sabres and grey ghosts are still a thing.
Whit all seriousness I doubt this list will get anywhere as it has no sense of direction, with every new iteration and new special unit being made we go away from the original idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:38 pm 
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Lots of things to unpack here….might be a long post (warning, contains a lot of personal thoughts that you may agree or disagree with).

McJakub - I agree with your last comment, 100%.

On sense of direction - this was materially changed between v3 and v4. With v2 and v3, the direction was always to get a playable force based on the IA rules. The last version, v3 was based on the IA8 Elysian army list. It had progressional development from the v2 rules which were based on earlier Elysian IA lists. The common point was, the underlying direction was always to get an Epic version of the Elysian’s that were playable. The shift came in v4, where the direction became develop a more competitive list. I’m not making a statement about this being right or wrong, just stating what has been stated in this thread, and why there has been a change of direction.

Now, my personal view, the change of direction isn’t the correct one. Sorry Deb, I like some of the stuff you’ve done with the list for sure, but fundamentally don’t think the Elysians should really be developed into a more competitive list. On this point, I’d like to reference what was written in the IA8 Elysian list:

“What is the appeal of an Elysian Drop Troop Army? Well, I think it can be summed up in two words: air power. If you enjoy the adrenaline rush of fast jets then this is the army for out. You get aircraft, lots of aircraft, and you get high-tech, elite soldiers plunging from the skies directly into battle - pretty cool!

This army’s true advantage lie in its speed, unpredictability, and unrivaled ability to attack anywhere on the tabletop, anytime. Using deep strikes and Valkyries, the Elysians can capture objectives rapidly by dint of overwhelming force and their close range firepower, often relying on demo charges and special weapons for tank-busting. Failing this, look to the skies. Vultures, Valkyries, and Imperial Navy aircraft pack fearsome amounts of firepower, and swooping over the table they can target just about anything. Tactical flexibility is the Elysians’ true advantage over most other forces, and a commander that learns to use that flexibility well will find their are few situations the Elysians cannot counter quickly and effectively.

Elysians are, by their nature, better suited to some scenarios than others. With their many Deep Striking and fast moving units, they are adept at capturing objectives. This is their forte. Pitched battles and annihilation missions, whilst not impossible, will be a more difficult proposition. Certain enemies also pose a serious problem for mobile light infantry force.

….

As an Elysian commander you will need to think hard about where and when to attack….Valkyries provide a measure of control over an Elysian force that grav-chutes do not. Grav-chuting is more hit and miss and for an entire force fraught with danger.

This is a specialized force, and I would suggest not a forgiving one for inexperienced commanders. Being Drop Troops, the Elysians lack many of the heavy weapons needed to defeat the enemy’s heaviest equipment and vehicles….Elysians commanders should not expect to engage the enemy in a conventional stand-up fight and win. Instead, they should seek to take objectives by rapid hard-hitting attacks and then hold them with grim determination and selective targeting of enemy threats. Casualties will often be high, but that is the price Drop Troop regiments pay for their mobility. “

So trying to make them into a more balanced and competitive force goes against all of the above that written about the force. We should definitely seek to ensure they are not overpowered, but evenly balanced is not something this list really is meant to be.

Aircraft…lots of aircraft, it’s stated in the description. We should be building a list to relies on this, even if they aren’t always the best tabletop option. We could always reduce points for aircraft as they may not be worth as much in this list given their canonical lack of AA support.

Fluff…yes, we’ve gotten away from wanting to create a playable canonical force, as stated. Canon has been sacrificed for competitiveness. Since the first two lists adhered strongly to canon as an underlying principal, this has left you feeling it’s deviated from the original idea, and I share the feeling.

There is heavy disagreement on the changes, and lots of opinions - but I think this is rooted in the list direction. People like myself who want a playable canonical force have very different opinions to those who want a more competitively playable list. Neither is right or wrong, just different.

So, what would I do if I were making a V4 list - a number of things Deb has already done. Increase formation size (probably a good thing). Increase Sentinel unit sizes, also a good and canonical thing. Changing their teleport rules to group planetfall, again, probably a good call by Deb. Changing the way mortar squads work, also a good call. Creating more sentinel units, again, another great call by Deb, and fits in with canon.

What would I have not done - added any non-canonical units, and any new special rules that didn’t already exist. They are purely there to create more competitiveness IMHO. Grey Ghosts and Sabres fall into this bucket. Totally get why they were added, and I agree it makes it more competitive, but if creating a canonical and playable list is still the direction of v4, then these are not the right direction.

What would I also look to do. Possibly more specialist squads, maybe an upgrade to have a specialist squad with demo charges and meltas to give the army a bit more chance against armor and big things. You could develop one unit to be much more focused on attacking the big guys (armor or titans) and it wouldn’t break the list at all. I’d also look at more aircraft options, I agree with McJakub - avengers would be nice and very fitting. Theres really no aircraft that should be off limits to the list. In a nutshell, I’d look for more canonical ways to make the list more competitive, but draw the line at anything not in current cannon doesn’t go int the list.

A lot of my own personal opinions in this post, and you may not agree with them all. Totally OK, and while I may not always agree with yours, I do respect them and understand where they come from (most of the time).


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:44 am 
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The I suggest Cosmic Serpent take over the development of the list.

I have tried to make a list I can take to a tournament and not have my butt handed to me in every game. A list that still follow the thematic guidelines of the Elysian forces, being a droplist based on Parachute regiments of WWII like the British and German parachute forces of that era. Fix (reduce) the massive amount of weaknesses and flaws that the list held, and still make the list realistic enough to be a modern version of those regiments.

At every turn I have had people on both side of the proposed changes almost abuse me with their persistant comments to either make the list more powerful, or weaken the list with what they want. There has not been an overwhelming majority for one idea or another when it comes to the votes. However there seems to be a few people who want o voice their opposition to any change at all.

I do not need this stress. I had hoped to make the list a little better, a bit more competitive in tournaments, but not too OP. Grey Ghosts were a decen idea for a forward scout formation. The Mortar company came from Forge Wolds miniature range they actually made. The Ground based AA was something most parachute regiments had in specialiized Platoons. The Poms had Paired Vickers mounted on Jeeps. The Germans had KettenKrad towing twin 20mm AA guns. Modern troopers carry Stingers or Strellas, however they do not have Paratroopers much these days. They rely on Helicopters and IFVs these days.

The list was my attempt to keep the list alive in tournaments, without making it into a list that already exists, and still keep it pretty much as it Historically was in WWII. Some called in artillery support, a specialized recon scout platoon, large formatoins of Infantry dropping in on an enemy force, a specialized platoon of Mortars for local small scale artillery assistance, some droppable (via gliders in WWII) light vehicles like the Taurus and sentinel walkers. I had hoped I was achieving that.

Please hand this over to someone who has more time. My work load has increased now I am full-time at the Warehouse. I also do not need the hassles and pressure of trying to deal with both sides this list. I was trying to get a mid point between both sides. You might as well keep it a the version 3 list, and keep the Teleport rule. I am sure any changes that are made from the version 3 list will be argued about for months or years to come, once they are proposed.

Thank you for the support from those that provided it. No thank you to thoise that provide me with constsnt migranes that did not help with work during the period of time with the change over from the old warehouse to the new one.

That is all I can say. I am closing down this version 4 thread and locking it.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:46 am 
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Administrators please lock and close down this thread. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:55 am 
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I'm willing to take the lead on the next iteration of the list, v5.0. Let me digest about 30 pages of stuff between the 3.0 and 4.0 thread over the weekend, and summarize where I think we are.


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