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Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development

 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:00 am 
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Oh well.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:36 pm 
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I know its a derivation form the main topic of valks, but I wanted to talk about the teleport substitute. Im confused why it cant just be self planet fall. Its and excellent ruling that the community has proven works(raven guard are the prime example). It restricts the formations maneuverability but allows them the heave and impact with out suffering from the BM teleport problem, and from appearing during the strategy phase and then getting shot to shit by you OP when they inevitably win strategy. I want to not that I heavily believe that valks should not be able to joining the company if it elects to use self planet fall to enter play.

Either way glad to see more people doing development again. Ill try to get games in as soon as possible(i need alot more valks atm). And to give my peeny for thoughts, I do think having access to cheap valks with rocketpods could become problematic, but that needs to be tested first. I had initially brought foward the idea of a stripped down valk since discovered that valks in elysisan use where known to have there two hard points changed an reequipped in unique combinations(like one rocket pod and one hellstrike missile). So I figured that it would make sense for in most missions the elysians need fuel pods over weapons' on there valks, because you aren't always guaranteed a close operational range. On top of that it always irqued me in all forms of this list valks where barley on the table, it always felt small compared what is talked about in lore and what airmoblie companies have access to in real life.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:49 pm 
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I wouldn't say they get access to "cheap" Valkyries, they pay the normal price for them. You would have to choose a deployment option, either self planetfall, or deploy by Valkyrie. You wouldn't get both.

I'm not sure what the real issue is with self planetfall, it was created in the most recent incarnation of the list to deal with people's dislike of teleport, perhaps Deb can share more context there.

And I agree, Valkyries really should be on the table with this list, without them its like fielding a mechanized infantry with no Chimera....


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:59 pm 
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Cosmic Serpent wrote:
I'm not sure what the real issue is with self planetfall, it was created in the most recent incarnation of the list to deal with people's dislike of teleport, perhaps Deb can share more context there.


look back on page 6. deb thinks it's OP with popcorn activations. IDK seems to be a problem w/popcorn to me [shrugs]

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:15 pm 
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The whole popcorn thing is slightly odd to me...I mean a goal of an airborne force is to drop in and overwhelm the target with a concentrated force. Hoping to hold out until reinforcements (from your side) arrive to help hold the ground you've just taken.

So in essence, isn't the whole point of an airborne operation to "popcorn" or have more activations/units than your enemy on some level? Now the game doesn't really embody reality when it comes to airborne type forces, as realistically I'd be trying to drop 6000 points of drop troops on your 500 point rear guard guarding a supply depot...not dropping into a front line 1:1 engagement. But reality would be no fun to play.

I don't personally see the popcorn issue as a problem, and never saw the 8 stand formations as an issue (although I was always using Valkyries as well, not 8 stand units teleporting). So in essence I wasn't really seeing the "popcorn" principle in my games, so I may have been a bit more blind to it.

My two cents.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:24 am 
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I tried the whole self planetfall testing, and every game I played, my forces were ineffectual, did not have the fire power or numbers to effect a decent assault. or take an objective. Any I used to run to cover so they could manouvere later on, or at that time use the spotter rule, were shot to piecec, artullery barraged to death or failed in their assaullts and were killed off or had to run and hide the next turn.

It did not matter who I opposed. an entire army of guard arriving piecemeal can not get the desired effect you require. I needed a larger force arriving, with some assaulting in force using the commander rule, and breaking an enemy force defending an objective, and hopefully they survive next turn, then other formations that are not activated either get ignored as the opponbent decided to hit them, ot they get hit and the survivors of the assault get a reprieve and find cover and hopefully are not broken, and can remove blast markers at turns end,

The storm trooper can still be used to teleport in the same way marines use their terminators. I tried the planetfall rules and a mass force just overwhelms the enemy and they tend to choose one area to defend and pull back fromn other areas which I can reinforce.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:28 am 
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As to the popcorn effect, the term generally means armies that have about 15 or more activations. I wouked out that I could build a 3000 point list with about 13 activations including space craft and planes. Overall it is a decent amount of activations, since the guard tend to be depleted fairly quickly and then have to survive to turn 3 - 5 to achieve the victory conditions.

Also wiht 13 formations, you tend to get slightly larger guard companies with upgrades, and they survive longer.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:37 am 
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This might be too impractical or complex, but based on the above, I'm seeing two things:

* Normal planetfall, most of the force arrives at once = too powerful.
* Self planetfall, everything arrives piecemeal = too weak.

Is there some way the list could be set up to have formations arrive in groups over multiple turns? Essentially, a sequence of separate Planetfalls. For example, up to a third of the list can be allocated to Planetfall 1, one third to Planetfall 2, up to a third to Planetfall 3.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:07 am 
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In a 3000 point list, I had for an average list with 13 formations, only 7 were coning in by drop. One was the spaceship, another the fighter planes, and 3 more were set up on table, and another teleported in. 7 formations set up in one area will over power that area, however, that leaves the rest of the table unprotected. I generally find you will have say a further drop company, say the mortar company is generally set up near your own blitz, and of the remaning 6 formations, of which 2 are sentinels or special weapons platoon are generally split between the enemy blitz and another objective.

I think dropping in waves will complicate things, and make it harder for the list to pass the development stage. It would only be viable if you had mearly all the force as drop troops/sentinels, and even then the enemy would make the area you drop into too crowded, and possible allow the enemy player to place yoiur troops where they want.

I understand the reinforcements would be a critical part like a second wave, but I think it would make the particular objective you want to reinforce overwhelmed still. Also you need to pre-plan where you want the formations to drop.

I found this the best way as it forces you to be careful in where you plan to drop the formations, and also work out how they will be dropped so they can support another group within a turns moving.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:58 am 
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Yeah, I didn't think it was likely to be a solution, just a random suggestion that came to mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:20 pm 
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In the times I tried debs variation i also found that to be and issue. Its why I pushed for bigger infantry companies. It would seem that this still is a problem. It seems like its worth to do some intensive testing on the core formations of this list. Maybe possible looking into upgrades that could be utilized that would make the company more beefier rather than give it weapon flexibility. I took a look at the arty company, could we possible bring down the firepower of a mortar to stand to something like a griffon and then allow the support formations to take it as and upgrade?

to address the other problem of supporting you drooped formations, why cant we look to sky's? Like the marauder colossus and marauder vigilant? Or on another note we could finally move the marauder flights off the WE stat line and back into the regular territory of just a flight of two. It brings more firepower that can used the support your drooped formations. As per usual these are just ideas and not much else

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:55 am 
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Is there a marauder bomber variant that is not a War Engine? Do you think the governing body will allow such a chang,. If I have to use a Sabre instead of man portable AA missiles or a half track motobike towed light AA gun because the sabre has existing stats, and the people who get to approve the list might get stuck on a chgange like that.

The size of the army and its activations are not that much of a problem. tThe formations generally get beaten down, break, and then die off quickly, or part of it is on the table getting shot up while the rest is awaiting the turn you have decided to drop them in. So popcorn effect activations should not be a problem in most games. Even with my increase in the size of the individual formations, the list can still be easily beaten by a commander who knows their army and tactics.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:24 pm 
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The maurader hull is an AC not a WE in almost every list but DKoK and even that one will probably fall. There's nothing to change because Maurader!=Heavy Maurader

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:47 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
The maurader hull is an AC not a WE in almost every list but DKoK and even that one will probably fall. There's nothing to change because Maurader!=Heavy Maurader

I thoight they would be having different stats but no, they are exactly the same. Cadains also use Marauder colossus afaik.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:18 am 
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Cool, then I can change that one and have them taken as standard bombers but as a pair of them for more fire power. At a decently approriate price for the squadron.

As to changing the way the army is currently with a range of support suadrons and platoons, I think is better than having too many options for a core company. I tried it, and you really need to design each company for a dedicated role - assault, support, or objective defending with some nice fire support, etc. It may not all work to plan, as no plan survives contact with the enemy.

It would also meen increasing the amount of upgrades a company can take (once each) and this would make the list unbalanced. Points and the amount of support formations allowed per core formatoin will limit the size of the army and thus limit activations. Most armies have a core command option, a core troop option, and maybe a score support option. Some of the more unwieldy or powerful ones have in my own oppinion way too many core formation options.

Lists like the Steel Legion and the Vraaksin Renegades, have too many core formations, and the amount of upgrade options, even if limited to only 3 per core formation, can make the list somewhat confusing. They have a decent amount of support options, as the number of these is limited by the number of core formations.

This list has possibilities for change, and still be balanced, not OP abut still competitive enough for the tournament scene.

I am gaming this weekend, and testing the current version of the list out, and will look at ways of introducing the options that have been mentioned that I said I liked and would try and get in the list after that. Work at the moment is hectic with the end of stocktake for the warehouse - now all the stock has been transferred from the old warehouse, and they have hit me with the "hurry and and pick the outstanding back orders we held back for the stocktake", but do not make any mistakes.

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