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Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development

 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:16 am 
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I like the idea of Hardened Veterans to assist htem woith CC, Fire Support troopers to help with FF, and for some longer 45cm AT fire support. The Spotter will be dropped, and the Commissar is a compulsory character for every 500 points, and helps with inspiring. As to the Sabre, not every formatoin was given one. Onlky my Regimental commaand, my BTS and my Mortar company. The rest of the drop companies were maximun 10 units for thaty army list as I had dropped the Cyclops.

The upgrades are there to customise the drop company, which can be all purpose, dedicated assault, or support. I have limited upgrades to max 4 which you can only have 1 of each. Most commanders will want to keep most of the drop companies smaller to have more of them. The BTS had a larger formation size to make it more durable, and it did last longer than you expected. Most of the other drop company formations were wiped out quite quickly, as you performed your clipping asaults sometimes 2 per tripple activation, and if you had not tried to kill of as many of my forces as possible, and try to hold, deny and take objectives so that I would have to move out of cover. Not that many of my formations got to cover before being either wiped out or broken and chased away.

I think changing the grey ghosts to have the entire formation get the spotter skill (stops them from spotting if they have a single blast marker) solves the artillery problem. The rocket sentinels, the mortars, will instead get a decently ranged Disrupt AP/AT fire similar to the Space Marine Thuddgun or Thunderfire cannon.

The idea you had of dedicated MW close range units was good, and the Special weapons platoon will be in the next list upgrade. I thought that the Sky talons may not be a good idea, as the drop sentinels can planetfall, and if put on the take, they and the taurus/vbenators have a decent move on the table anyway.

The valkyrie borne rapid response platoon will allow those who want a bit of manouveability and strength to retake objectives an option. Same with the teleport or valkyrie borne Storm troopers.

Compared to other lists out there, the number of core formations might be too much, however the Special weapons platoon can be relegated to support formations. I might increase the number of support formations from 2 to 3 per core formation if I do that. Many specialised lists that do not have a plethora of TK. long ranged MW, WE, and dozens of skimmers tend to have more support formations such as Biel-tan Eldar and so on.

The cost of the core formations will be increased to compensate for their added rule of Infiltrate, and as you recommended a FF of 4+. Hopefully this will keep the popcorn lists rare, and still keep them competitive in tournaments, as they will likely be broken and die off quickly once on the ground.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:16 am 
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Version 4.3.0 has been added to the first post in PDF format. I think this version allows for some stronger yet not too large formations, and deals with the Elysians lack of initial punch when they land, and engage.

I have greatly reduced thge amount of Artillery, in fact only the grey Ghosts can call in a single artillery fire attack (as a formation - which makes it hard to supress all the units that can spot). All other former artillery type attacks have been made into ranged attacks similar to the Thudd Gun or Thunderefire cannons but with Distrupt to assist the initial softening of enemy before the assault.

A special weapons platoon has been added to the support formations (max one per core Drop Company though), to give a little UMPH into the initial strike, and provide some very short ranged 15cm MW support fire.

The drop troopers all now get Infiltrate to represent thier sudden strike into the middle of the enemy (and their desire to close with them rather than being out in the open and shot to pieces). To allow for thier Plasma Guns, I have increased commanders, and drop troops FF to 4+- however I have increased the cost of the formations to account for these changes. Where orks are better in CC and love a good all in brawl, they are better in FF and like to throw stuff at the enemy (usually balls of Plasma energy).

Formation prices may increase even more if I find the cost does not account for the changes made. I have also dropped the amount of upgrades a core formatoin gets from 4 down to 3, so you can not buiild a formation that no-one can break. Spotters are history as well, and all the sky talons are removed from the list. Only Valkyries are allowed as transports, and only for the Storm troopers, and the Air-Cav Response Platoon. Valkyries have also been made cheaper, but they lose their 1 shot template weapons.

This will make the army less of a fast artillery force, and more of a hard punch strike force that is also fragile, with enough support units to place blast markers on enemy formations before the attacks commence. I had thought of dropping the Marauder bombers, as they are seldom taken and do not do that much anyway.

Test the list - give feedback. Let me know if the formations are too cheep or whether the list has too much umph or is balanced just right.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:30 am 
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I made a small test list for this new version of the army.

It seems fairly well balanced. and only 13 formations including the Spaceship and a lightning squadron.

Elysian drop list army ver 4.3.0 – 3000 points – 13 Formations
Core formations – 1225 points
300 pts – Regimental Command Company + sabre + Commissar [Supreme Commander]
300 pts – Elysian Drop Company + Fire Support Troops + Sabre + Commissar
325 pts – Elysian Drop Company + Sabre + Hardened Vets + Cyclops + Commissar [BTS]
300 pts – Elysian Mortar Drop Company + Sabre + Fire Support Troops + Commissar
Support Formations – 1475 points
250 pts – Elysian Special Weapons Platoon
275 pts – Grey Ghosts
200 pts – Elysian Storm Troopers Platoon
300 pts – Elysian Vulture Squadron
150 pts – Drop Rocket Sentinel Squadron
150 pts – Drop Rocket Sentinel Squadron
150 pts – Drop Sentinel Squadron
Allies, Space Ships and Aircraft – 300 points
150 pts – Luna Class Cruiser
150 pts – Lightning Fighter Squadron

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 3:42 pm 
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I had a read through this, can't say I like most of the changes being made (just MHO). We worked on the v1-3 lists back in the day based on IA books/lists as canonical guidance for the lists. I get the people didn't like the teleport rule, but why change so many things (this incarnation just doesn't mesh with any of the background written), versus just slight tweaks to v3?

I really liked Honda's v3 list and the direction we were going with it. Thought it could have used some slight tweaking to address the teleport complaints - this looks like a whole new take on them and changes way too many things. Some of the things I am not fond of are:
- Valkyries with no rocket pods
- Base formations not having the Valkyrie mounted option
- Sabre platforms (things designed for static defense don't belong in an airmobile list) - weak AA may just be a challenge of the Elysians
- Made up new support formation (grey ghosts) with no background support for them being part of the list
- Demolition charges were a main component of Elysians, they seem to have disappeared

My two cents is we've strayed off the path with this one, trying too hard to make it more well balanced (it was never designed to be super balanced - good at certain things, but not something you'd play in a tournament for example where your looking to play against all other possible lists).

Also wanted to be clear, this isn't a personal attack on you Deb (greatly appreciate the effort people put in as I've been in your shoes with this exact list, and its a lot of work). My feedback is more targeted at the direction the list has taken. I'm coming back into the fold with the new AI plastics, and looking at 3D printed options for things as well. I'll probably stick with the last iteration of the v3 list as for me, it embodies the flavor and background of the Elysian Drop Troops (despite many shortfalls).


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 9:01 am 
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I have had many people provide feedback from the various versions of the list. Some wanted troop portable ground based AA like a SAM, or the Sabre. The increase in the formation sizes was feedback from a person who felt the basic formations were too small and could be popcorned, but also that they could be made large at a small cost.

He said perhaps increase thre cost of the basic formation, but increase the size of it. Provide some dedicated anti-tank/WE groiups. Hence the Special weapons platoon, and the Drop Sentinels which have a save, but are LV only slightly faster than the infantry.

The force needed some artillery, even if it was portable, but the spotter did not worrk out and was supressed once the formation got one blast marker. The grey ghosts are my invention. They fulfill the role of scouts/garrison, and now the role of artillery spotter. I think the cost is a little bit cheap now they have the spotting rule for the formation, and may need to be raised. They still have Vultures, and a ready reaction valkyrie trnasported platoon to fulfill advise supplied that in the apocalyse data sheet some of their force was was set up as a valkyrie transport platoon formation.

The line breaker force was taken from another list to provide some limited but heavy and short ranged armour support. It takes up part of the valuable 1/3 portion of the list, so I do not expect it to be taken very often.

To balance the ground based AA, the Lightning squadrons were reduced in size, but a better flexible role version of the lightning was chosen to allow it to attack enemy infantry, armour and provide CAP equally.

The list form what I can see now has a better list of optoins, for the budding commander, and will allow them to take a decent core drop force, backed up by fast ground rapid anti tank units, quick reaction transported infantry to take upsupported enemy objectives. Maybe a slightly slower armoured support group (but den expensive one you might not take), Aircraft, bombers (which are fairrly useless), Venators/Taurus (a traditoinal unit that dates back to forgeworld, and look really nice). The Cyclops are a little hit/miss, and if they were not also already part of a few other air/cav and drop lists, I was thnking of dropping them.

The list has been worked on tested and and improved to make it a viable balanced tournament list - one that may do okay, but they will not be as good as say Eldar/Dark Eldar, many of the Ork lists, Necrons, Imperial fists (current list), AMTL, and possibly even the Iron warriors/Scion of Iron lists. I would put them on a par with maybe sisters of battle, most Imperial guard lists, maybe speed freaks orks, and possibly a vanill marine list.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 3:46 pm 
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Hey Deb!

I get a lot of the why from reading through all the threads, and it may be a better general list. It's just no longer the Elysian Drop troops as written by GW.

We worked hard to get things accurate to the background with the v1-3 lists based on what was published in the IA books. Each list was built upon the previous incarnation, a lot seems to have gone out the window though as this list has taken completely new directions. Yeah, I'm pretty passionate about this topic/list as we put a lot of hard work into those lists back in the day (they weren't perfect by any means though), so don't take any of my feedback personally. ;)

There are some things I could definitely get behind though in your changes
- bigger formations, makes some sense to align with other lists
- fixing the teleport rule, I agree needed to be done
- increasing numbers of sentinels in a group, given the history of Elysians relying heavily on them
- special weapons platoon (P.S. you unit statistics page doesn't include special weapons troops line item, maybe you meant it to be the Elysian Support Squad)

Things that I personally don't see a need for (or solved differently perhaps)
- static AA platforms being part of a airmobile force
- Special Elysian Strom Troopers (no other IG list has special storm troopers, no need here, just use normal storm troopers)
- making up new units with no canonical background (Grey Ghosts). I wanted a pathfinder unit back in the day (somewhat similar to what you have here), ultimately we didn't include it because there was no background supporting it. Being the list moderator/creator is tough...you want certain things, but also need to abide heavily by the background.
- should just be two sentinel versions (as that's what their IA list calls for) - A support sentinel with rockets, and a drop sentinel with either MM or Bolter option. Scout sentinel has no existing background to support this being here.
- no armor, this goes against everything the list itself is
- not having the Valkyrie option for the basic formations is also a core piece of the Elysian force, it absolutely must be an option IMHO, without it we've stripped away a big part of their identity (arguably the biggest).
- Valkyries should be valkyries...again, not a special version.
- back in the day your artillery came from the Valkyrie rocket pods being able to put a lot of BP...were they perfect and always available, no since they were so short ranged at 30 cm...but that's what the background supports, and the existing rules for rocket pods, so we just had to deal with it. No spotters with off board artillery (no other list has this, again, why are the Elysian's special here especially with no canonical support we can point to in the background). Now I would agree, this makes practical sense given how real modern day troops operate...but it would also make sense in other lists as well, and it's not there, so shouldn't be here.

Elysians also make heavy use of Melta guns and demo charges, while being very short ranged, a lot of their AT should come from this as that's how the list sort of worked - drop in close, use those things to take out armor....if it didn't work, you were up the creek! Their special weapons support should be based on these things (I'll need to double check my IA8 book again).

A lot of the Elysian concept comes from the paratrooper/Vietnam era air cav. From that perspective, artillery support would likely come from an orbiting spaceship bombarding units with BM right prior the air landing force arriving. Logically this would apply to other lists like drop pod deploying space marines as well.....

I guess my big ask is to go back and advance the v3 list, more than drastic rewrites that the v4 list is currently. V1-3 you can see a logical progression of development, V4 is something completely different. I say this mainly as someone who has walked this path before in developing those lists alongside Honda and others.

P.S. - majority of people in the poll you ran voted for no AA, but it was still added? Why solicit feedback then throw out what most people think is the right direction? One or two people were more vocal about having it, and that seemed to win out over the majority vote, which doesn't feel right.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 1:50 am 
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The current list is a compromise to the various feedback from all people who have provided it, and from what I have seen a a massive list of weaknesses and a small list of bonuses for the list in its original form.

The "Paratroops" drop in and hold out until the allied support forces arrive to reinforce them.

I could bring back the valkyries as an upgrade option which makes the list over complicated with too many options for the core formations (from a former comment), or have a special corre company that includes the valkyries included. This would mean the drop element of the force would be less likely as more generals would be looking to design thier list wil mostly air cav companies.

I could drop the Scout sentinels, but would also mean that taking a form of pathfinder / grey ghost formation would then be the only option, so I would have to chosse one or the other to delete, and I would prefer to remove the scout sentinels - 2 birds with one stone.

Even in Vietnam, air cav and their parachute formations were able to call in artillery support. You would expect that the Grey ghost who are go out into the field days before hand would be able to set up things for their inbuilt artillery spotters to call in such limiited local artillery suport form other support regiments. I will probably keep that option for the grey ghosts.

Ground based AA is generally mandatory for any tournament based list to atleast perfom decently. List that rely on purely aircraft have a tendency to loose all their aircraft (which only one can intercept after running the gauntlet of enemy ground based AA itself). If you look through out history from the German parratroopers, to more modern forces, they had either a towable twin 20mm AA gun pulled bu ba half track motorbikes, or they have man portable missile launcher similar to stingers. I was cornered into using the sabre as it had current stats and would likely be allowed to go through the moderators. When you say the majority of people voted, it was so close that a vote of one or two for it would have changed it to the exact opposite of what it was. It was too close to call a definative majority.

As too the Valkyries and their one shot rockets, I had too many comments about them being over powerful. An upgraded company with extra support units, could have 6 or 7 valkyries and that means a BP6, or 7 attack. My opponent in one game had a formation broken badly by the overwhelming fire power that he said the list had too much artillery. That was in the game where I could not use my spotters as he brought up the flaw in their use that a single blast marker would stop the spotters use, my mortars did not come into play as he stayed away from their direct fire (at that time), and the Grey Ghosts did not thave the spotter ability, it was just the missiles from the valkyries and vendettas that he complained about in his feedback.

If I bring back the Valkyrie rockets, I have to increase their price again. That would mean you would get people moving over to the Harkoni Warhawks list for their Air cav list. It is why I added in the ready response air cav polatoon option to give them an cheaper alternative. Yes another support option, but it meant they were not "another core formation", if I had decided to put a dedicated valkyrie borne company up as a core formation.

As to artillery, the mortar company is well balanced, not over priced, not too powwerful, and they do not have the range of fire power of comparable guard forces. They are also limited, so oyu will not see many in an army, maybe not even one, but the option is there.

The Vultures themselves are your only real dedicated anti mech/heavy vehicle formation. Expensive, and once thier missiles are fired, they are like a dog with its teeth and claws pulled out. They then become a mobile objective taker, a force to provide crosfire, or other mundane roles. Their relative weak armour just helps to get them killed off, by enemy artillery or bombers. Okay for thier inital use, then run and hide them. Even my retro changing them to an earlier version that had longer range only helped them get in their attack earlier befor they were eventually pummelled to oblivion in almost every game. They ofet did not even get to their target, as they were targeted by everything from Ork twin Soopa guns, Reavers with paired Quake cannons and a landing pad, minatour artillery squadrons, and so on. Though I still want to include them in the list, they are too weak for their cost, but I will not change them.

GW back int he day really did not care so much about the Elysian to develop them, as they were a Forgeworld designed regiment. Some of the Forgeworld Apocalypse articles were limited, and you were expected back in those days to use combined forces from a number of imperial guard regiments to support each others weaknesses in the 40K spectrum. I/3 allies, of which the Elysians were usually the allies.

When this was transferred to the epic game. It did not bode well for the general who wanted to make the elysians his main force. I included the armoured contingent (even though they have only conquerors rather than normal leman russes) to fill the role of fast allied armour column rushing up to support thier belieged advance forces. Not everyone will be looking to add that allied contingent in. Their inclusion at 300 points is a major sink that could be 2 aircraft squadrons, 2 sentinel squadrons, and so on.

I will look at your comments. I want to make this list a viable tournament list. Vot a list that grows moald and sits in a corner or on a generals bottom shelf gathering dust. I want people to want to bring it out occasionally for a tournament, even a local friendly tournament. I want the list to not be flattened by an enemy titan/ gargant heavy force, or one with a lot of ground based AA and armour/heavy armour. I want them to still be balanced, not to OP, and still be as close to the original intent that they were designed to be foy Forgeworld all those decades ago.

I want them to shine, but only to a meadiocre level so they perfom about average to well in a tournaments.

In most games, the Supreme commander drops in, so no re-rolls until his company drops., a major draw back. Their inbuilt artillery is limited, and they tend to call in support, or get hammered if they can not get it. They have normal infantry sized formations, but they drop into close to the enemy, and have less in the way of heavy support options within their own ranks. This is what my list does.

I oculd drop the sabres as an upgrade, but make them a dedicated support option, like the Hydra squadron. You would probably see people not adding them into a list so they can get that extra sentinel squadron in. I think if I do add them in, a small squadron of 4 sabres for 75 points would be about right. This accounts for their slow speed, being mounted infantry (so dangerous terrain tests). no armour save, and low formation numbers, so easily broken. I thnik 5 or 6 sabres would be too much, they would be a thorn or a tick with too much bite for a force to make bombing runs near. Even though tey have a very short range.

I will lkook at the list. Put forward some changes, and hope their is not a usual negative reactoin from both sides of the field whinging that I dropped certain things while others whinge that I have not gone far enough.

I want this list to be one that the moderators like, one that is balanced, not too OP, can still perform decently in tournaments, and still be thematic. A hard thing to do when people from both sides of an arguement keep harassing and hounding you to do what they think is the way the list should be changed to.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:40 am 
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I made some changes based on your comments, however I still wish to retain a certain amount of resiliance within the list to allow it to be a proper glass hammer rather than a glass tumbler.

A possible new version of the list below - I did not include the 1st page which is unchanged.

ELYSIAN DROP TROOP ARMY LIST
The army has a Strategy rating of 2. All units have an Initiative rating of 2.

Formation Type Units Cost
0-1 Elysian 1 Elysian Supreme Commander, 11 Drop Troops. 300
Regimental HQ May have 6 Valkyries for 150

Elysian Drop Troop 1 Elysian Commander, 11 Elysian Drop Troops. 275
Company May have 6 Valkyries for 150 points

Elysian drop Mortar 1 Elysian Commander, 7 Elysian drop Troop, 275
Company. Limit 4 Elysian Mortar units. May take 6 Valkyries
1 per 3000 points for 150 points


Elysian Drop Support Platoons/Squadrons 0-3 per Drop Company
Formation Type Units Cost

Elysian Anti-tank 1 Elysian Commander, 7 Elysian Special 250
Platoon weapons troopers .Only one per drop company.
May have 4 Valkyries for 100 points

Elysian droppable 4 Sabres droppable AA Platforms 75
Sabre Battery May have 2 Valkyries for 50 points

Vulture Squadron 4 Vultures. May replace hellstrike missiles 300
and Autocannon with Punisher Cannons

Elysian Drop Sentinel 6 Drop Sentinels. 150
Squadron

Elysian Drop Rocket 6 Elysian Drop Rocket Sentinels. 150
Sentinels 1 per 1000 points

Tauros Squadron 6 Tauros or Venator in any combination 150

Storm Trooper 1 Storm Trooper Commander, 7 Storm 200
Company Troopers. May take 4 Valkyries for 75 points

Grey Ghosts Platoon 8 Grey Ghost 300
(0 – 1) per army

Drop Troop Company Upgrades. Upgrades may be taken only once.
Upgrade Type Units Cost
Drop Hardened 2 Drop Hardened Veterans 25
Veterans May take a Valkyrie for 25 points if formation has them

Drop Fire Support 2 Drop Fire Support units 25
May take a Valkyrie for 25 points if formation has them

Elysian Cyclops 2 Elysian Cyclops Units 25
May take a Valkyrie for 25 points if formation has them


Elysian Air and Allied units – Up to 1/3 or army may be spent on allies
Formation Type Units Cost
Space Ship 0 -1 Lunar Cruiser 150

Lightning Wing 2 Lightning Fighters 150

Lightning Strike 2 Lightning Strike Fighters 150

Marauder 1 Marauder Destroyer 175
Destroyer

Marauder Bomber 1 Marauder Bomber 150

Line Breaker 6 Imperial infantry units, 3 Chimeras, 300
Column 3 Conquerors. may add 3 Conquerors
for 150 points. Limit 1 per army

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Last edited by Deb on Sat May 29, 2021 6:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 4:08 am 
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And the relevant unit Statistics sheet. I did not include the last page as no changes were made to it.

Elysian Drop Army Unit Statistic
Unit Type Move Save CC FF Weapons Range Firepower Notes
Elysian Supreme INF 15cm 5+ 4+ 4+ Lasguns Small Arms
Commander Plasma Cannon 30cm AP5+/AT5+
Power Weapons CC EA+1 MW
Supreme Commander. Drop Troops, Infiltrate

Elysian Commander INF 15cm 5+ 5+ 4+ Lasguns Small Arms
Plasma Cannon 30cm Ap5+/AT5+
Power Weapons CC EA+1 MW
Commander, Leader, Drop Troops, Infiltrate

Commissar CH - - - - Power Sword CC EA+1 MW Leader, Fearless, Inspiring

Elysian Drop INF 15cm - 5+ 4+ Lasguns Small Arms
Troop Infantry Plasma Cannon30cm AP5+/AT5+

Drop Troops, Infiltrate. Plasma Cannon every 2nd unit

Elysian Drop INF 15cm 6+ 4+ 4+ Las Carbines Small Arms
Hardened Veterans Machetes CC
Plasma Cannon 30cm AP5+/AT5+
Drop Troops, Infiltrate

Grey Ghosts INF I5cm - 4+ 4+ LasCarbines Small Arms FS
Machetes CC FS
Sniper Rifle 30cm AP5+
Called in artillery 45cm 3BP IND Disrupt
Masters of Stealth (+1 to their cover save), Sniper, Scout

Elysian Special INF - 5+ 4+ Melta Gun 15cm MW5+
Weapons Unit Small Arms (MW)
Lasguns Small Arms
Drop Troops, Infiltrate, Every 2nd Unit has a Melta Gun

Storm Troopers INF 15cm 5+ 4+ 4+ Hellguns Small Arms
Plasma Cannon 30cm AP5+/AT5+
Teleport

Elysian Support Squad INF 15cm - 6+ 3+ 2 x Missile Launchers 45cm AP5+/AT6+
Drop Troops

Elysian Mortar Squad INF 15cm - 6+ 4+ Lasguns Small Arms
Paired Mortars 60cm 2x AP4+/ AT5+ Indirect
Drop Troops No minimum or double range for Indirect.

Elysian Cyclops LV 25cm 6+ 3+ - Demo Charges CC MW One Shot
Infiltrate, Drop Troops, Removed from play after it attacks, Expendable

Taurus LV 35cm 6+ 6+ 4+ Grenade Launcher 30cm AP5+/AT6+
Walker, Scout

Taurus Venator LV 35cm 6+ 6+ 5+ Multi-Laser or 30cm AP4+/AT5+
TLLascannon 45cm AT4+
Walker, Scout

Elysian Drop Rocket Sentinel LV 20cm 6+ 6+ 5+ Support Rocket Launcher 45cm AP4+/AT5+
Disrupt, Ind No minimum & no double range,
Walker, Drop troops

Elysian Drop Sentinel LV 20cm 6+ 6+ 4+ Multi-Melta Small Arms (15cm)
15cm MW MW 5+
Drop Troops, Walker

Elysian Sabre Platform INF 10cm - 6+ 5+ Twin Flak AC 30mm 30cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+ Mounted, Drop troops. Walker

Elysian Valkyrie Transport AV 35cm 5+ 6+ 5+ Multi-laser 30cm AP5+/AT6+
2x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+
2 x Rocket pods 30cm 1BP, Dis, OS
Skimmer, Scout may transport 2 Infantry only.

Vulture Gunship AV 35cm 5+ 6+ 5+ Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+
plus TL Autocannon + 45cm AP4+/AT5+
2 Hellstrike Missiles 120cm AT2+ OS
or TL Punisher Cannon 30cm 4 x AP4+
Skimmer, Scout Replaces Autocannon and Hell Strikes


Chimera AV 35cm 5+ 6+ 5+ Multilaser 30cm AP5+/AT6+
Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+
Transports 2 IG Infantry Units

Leman Russ ConquerorAV 30cm 4+ 6+ 5+ Conqueror Cannon 45cm AP5+/AT5+
Lascannon 45cm AT5+
Reinforce Armour

IG Infantry unit INF 15cm - 6+ 5+ Lasguns Small Arms
Autocannon 45cm AP5+/AT6+
Every second unit has an Autocannon

I hope these changes alleviate some of oyur concerns. I do not want to stray from my goal of both a thematic and also a tournament viable army list.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 6:35 am 
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A lot to digest here...let me read through it a few times.

Might be good to break the conversation up into "components". Here's what stuck in my head after the first read through everything you wrote (appreciate the detailed conversation points).

In terms of artillery, it sounds like the Valkyries did their job in your referred to battle - they broke up a formation. But because they are a one/two shot weapon, it's not like they can repeatedly pound things with massive barrages. They can hit very hard once, or kinda hard twice. That should form the artillery support for the list is my thinking (and always was the case when I played with them). The Valkyries are the Chimera of the Elysian's, so I'm not sure how it overcomplicates the base formations - you are either deploying via Valkyries, or deploying via grav chute. That comment about complexity could be applied to any list that has Chimera transport options then.... At their heart, the Elysian's are an air cavalry list, the original literature on the Valkyries references the Elysians and Storm Troopers as their main users:

"Only a few Forge Worlds can manufacture them, and all Valkyries that are built are supplied to the Storm Troopers and 'Drop Troop' Imperial Guard regiments, such as those recruited on Elysia or Harakon.' - Quote from IA Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy.

So you're giving players the option, use their Valkyries as "off board' high flyers deploying in an "airborne fashion" via grav chutes, or use them as an air cavalry formation. Both are valid options as the air cavalry costs aren't super cheap.

The Valkyries "artillery" is also very short ranged (30 cm). It's also kind of interesting that people complained about it having too much artillery, so we neutered the Valkyrie and then added more artillery into the list? I'm always a fan of keep the units the way they are, no "Elysian Valkyries" or "Elysian Storm Troopers". Valkyries are Valkyries, Storm Troopers are Storm Troopers, we shouldn't be making special versions of any canonical elements already in the game. That was something we agreed upon early on in working on this list...there was heavy conversation on the rocket sentinels as they are equipped with a rocket pod, which is a 1 BP weapon. We eventually had to make a concession there, but it was heavily discussed at one point and the only deviation we made from keeping units canonical where there were existing stats (we debated this probably 15 years ago, I think during v1 or v2 list building).

Reading through some of the other threads on "real world" use of artillery that came up in discussion, I totally agree with them. Sometimes I have to remind myself that 40K isn't "real world" though, and not try to overly apply that logic to things. Realistically Valkyries should be able to pepper a landing zone with rockets from further away than 30 cm most likely, then fly in...but the rules for rocket pods are 30 cm, so we live with them as written. Off board artillery should be a thing in every list too, realistically speaking, but it's not.

In regards to your opponents comment of too much artillery, how does that opponent feel about large formations of Basilisks sitting behind a hill dropping 9 BPs every turn on them (at 120 cm range)....that's MUCH worse IMHO than Valkyries limited damage potential at 30 cm range. Manticores can be even worse in terms of a sledge hammer hitting your formation. Plus if you are able to shoot down the Valkyries, you're doing a ton of damage to the Elysian List (not just eliminating the artillery component). It definitely makes them more "glass hammer" like, they can hit very hard but can also be very fragile if you go the route of Valkyrie mounted formations and your opponent is able to take out a number of Valkyries early on. Makes the list very much a scalpel vs a sledgehammer that other guard armies can be.

Lastly while talking about Valkyries (and variants), the Sky Talon needs to be added into the list as transport options for the Sentinels, Tauros and Venators. Makes everything core to the list air mobile, and fits with the background as written. The Vendettas should also be added in as well. I'm going to fall back on Vietnam era air cav as that's what this list most commonly resembles - the Vendettas could be added in as a transport option (either Valkyrie or Vendetta), or if we look at the Huey Gunships from Vietnam as a model, they could take more of a dedicated support roll (I would lean on this as the better option). You could take 4 Vendettas as another support option. Gives you something else other than the Vulture if you want an all airmobile list. It also gives you a good anti-armor option with the 3xTL lascannons.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 8:46 am 
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I like the idea of having either Vendettas or Vultures. This means you can have some units in the dedicated ant-armour squadron that will not run out of thier main fire power, and some that will just be zooming heavy bolters after they fire their rockets. Whether to mix them in a single squadron, or choose a squadron of one or the other is the thing to decide.

The artillery in the previous games was never that powerful with the spotters when I had not realised they could be suppressed so easily. It was haphazard, and at BP3 direct fire was not at all overwhelming. Just enough to put a blast marker or 2 before you assaulted, mavbe even take an enemy unit out. The mortars were generally kept back to defend the Blitz, and were either pummelled by enemy artillery, Spaceships, or assaulted by teleported in troops. Sometimes they did their job, and took out a few before they were over run. They were generally used as area denial.

I think it was the high amount of BP that broke the enemies back with regards to artillery, 6 or 7 BP gets an extra template and an extra blast marker, even if it is only 1 shot. Now the spotters are gone, the Grey Ghosts are still limited to a maximum range of 90cm using the double 45cm range for their spotting, and they are limited to 1 unsupressed unit being able to call in the artillery fire per shooting phase. That also helps if the enemy is the kind of Genetal who sits at range and like to trade long range artillery fire. But I only get one formation to do that.

The Valkyries will stilll have to take up the banner of main artillery support again, even if it is only one shot. I also found I wanted to fire all the Valkyries insted of some, as trying to maintain some way of working out which individual units had shot their rockets and which did not was a problem on a table with rapidly moving valkyries moving about, and too many different types of markers being placed, bumped, etc.

I removed the Sky Talon because it seemed silly to have a fast 35cm Taurus/Venator, being transported around the table and then have the formations size isemm to ncrease to double suddenly (making it harder to break - which many opponents will ague about), even though you pay for the points cost to increase the formation size. Thus making your force have less activations. It is all a trade off on having formations large enough to survive, but still have enough activation on the table.

I thought about only offering the sky talons for the sentinels as they are only slightly faster than the general infantry while the Taurus and Venators are as fast as the Skytalons/Valkyries, and over twice as fast as the infantry. This means you would be able to take the Taurus/Venators when you could not afford the skytalonsas well, and still have a decent formation on the table.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:17 pm 
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I agree, I always fired all the Valkyrie rocket pods I could when given the option. It does create a one shot sledgehammer, but just slightly more than an IG list with a single Basilisk company, or less than a Manticore company (at that point in the list we were fielding base formations of 8, not 12 as well). Although the Basilisk company is able to repeatedly drop massive bombardments on your head, turn after turn and stay relatively protected. Valkyries have to get up in your face to do it, which puts them in a much more vulnerable position, so MHO is that they are totally fine in comparison.

Vendettas are technically still able to carry troops, so they could be made options for troop transport. I personally like the idea that the whole concept of a Vendetta gunship came about more as a support vehicle, similar to the Vietnam Huey Gunships (but I have to put that aside to keep in line with what is written about it). The "good" part about making them transport options, from the perspective/concern about artillery, is you're diluting the artillery BP capability to field the Vendettas. In a formation of six transports, I could see myself taking 3 Valkyries and 3 Vendettas to get the extra template on the initial artillery barrage (or probably 4/2 to give myself a little buffer). Or more likely one group of rocket pod armed Valkyries, one group of Vendettas to optimize things.

I think we just need to decide, should they be a transport option, or fielded more as another support option that gives the list the much needed AT punch. With this one change, the Vendetta is probably now one of best AT weapons the list has with 3x AT4+ shots from each bird. I think I read some complaints about the list not having enough AT capability as the driver for including the missile launcher teams, this heavily boosts that short coming (note, not saying we would eliminate the missile launchers, they are still canonical options for Elysians).


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 9:08 am 
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Correct me if my understanding of the rules is wrong. Can I use a Vendetta formation purchased for the anti-tank role to pick up a formation of drop troops when they have lost enough members to fit in the Vendettas transports, and transport them elsewhere.

I keep thinking about dedicated transports, but I think that is a 40K rule, not an epic rule. I could not find anything stopping me using them to pick up another formation from the same army. I think there is a general about picking up allies in your transports.

If you can do this, then you have another role for the Vendettas that are purchased for the anti-tank role. A pity the Vultures do not have a transport capacity if this is the case. They could then be used to ferry troop isolated and possibly about to be over run or destroyed through enemy preparing to shoot at them, or engage them.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 2:11 pm 
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1.7.5
Transport vehicles may only carry units from their own formation.

War Engines can transport units from a different formation, regular transports cannot.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 2:41 pm 
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Sable Wyverns spot on, transport units are effectively "bound" to the unit they start the game transporting. Or in the case Vendettas were purchased as a support option, would not be able to transport anything and only act as a mobile AT platform.


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