I'll put my hand up with Largo, very happy with the list as it is, don't see the need for any changes

one other point, in keeping with the preferred NetEA method, the proposed changes would also need to filter through into other lists with access to bombards, hellhounds, baneblades etc

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I am happy with the list as it is, there are some sub-par choices in there, but that isn't unique to the Steel Legion, I'd also support some tweaks to the points of artillery batteries as currently manticores are better in the majority of situations making them an obvious choice, either bumping them to 275 OR dropping the others to 225 would be worthwhile in my book, that being said, I don't think the list NEEDS any changes

I'm happy to help out with playtesting anything that isn't ridiculous (and I don't think any of your suggestions fall into that category), but my approach would actually be to suggest people try some 4k games if possible, trying to make use of hellhounds/tank squadrons etc as they are, that will IMO have a much lower impact than on the 'activations are king' mentality of the 3k game... stuff like battle titans, slow and steady spaceships and beefy unit upgrades are far more attractive at higher points values (well, they are to me anyway) which is why I think sticking to the status quo is the best option. The 'people not taking unit upgrades' problem is not endemic to the steel legion list, there are plenty of rarely seen upgrades in the marine list too (vindicators, land raiders, hb razorbacks, dreads, captains, librarians) as well as several in the ork list or black legion as well.... I just don't think you can make them an attractive option unless you reduce the point values to silly levels which unbalances the game

Another issue is that the steel legion list ranks up alongside the codex marines, ghazgkull orks and biel-tan as our 'benchmark' lists, they give a gold standard by which other lists can be balanced, if we fiddle with them too much, we risk losing that standard somewhat, which is another reason why I err on the side of the status quo

okay I've said my piece

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There are variations in points costs for formations in different lists (see Thunderbolt in Codex Marines and Steel Legion for example).
Stat changes would need to flow through to other lists.
Points changes may not.

The only changes I see some possible merit in testing are:

Storm Troopers get Chimera
Tank Squadron upgrade: to 150 points

But even they are not really necessary in my mind.

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I agree with Largo.

I believe you are getting too hung up on internal balance to see the big picture.
The Steel Legion list is stable, not because of "inaction and lethargy on the ERCs part" but because it's a stable balanced list with some options that are not used as much as others.
Show me a list where all the options are as good as each other?
No such list.

I respect your enthusiasm as Army Champion and do not want to see that diminish.

I do not speak for the other ERC members but my comment on only testing 2 of the proposed changes was due to the likelihood (or not) of the other changes ever getting approval.

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FWIW I believe there are two conflicting perspectives at work here. As one of the three 'core' lists I agree that we need to think long and hard about changing the Steel Legion list, especially as it seems to be reasonably balanced. OTOH it seems there are elements that could be tweaked given some 10+ years global hindsight, in much the same way as people have reviewed the Marine list, especially in light of the newer lists that have been developed in recent years.

Equally Rug does not seem to be going at this in a hung-ho fashion. Quite the reverse in fact. It seems that he is merely suggesting some interesting alternatives for people to try out, at which point either he may reject them, or the ERC may reject formalising them.

Personally I would like to see them tested to see what impact they have on IG lists as well as the impact on the battlefield.

Hmmm.

Overall strategy for the list is to Emperor the Blitz T3 and grab control of it for 1 point, and control a second objective in the opponent's half for another 1 then to use the remaining units to prevent the enemy controlling enough objectives in my half to score more than 1 point. This means having enough stuff fast and/or tough enough to sit within 15cm of the objectives in my half and keeping my BTS alive.

Aiming for 2-1 end of turn 3. May not win any tournaments (without the bigger tournament points haul of bigger wins) but satisfying to go undefeated all the same.

For this to work I need
1. to clear the blitz T3 and to be able to get something quick and tough enough to sit on it.
2. Enough fast/scout units to contest numerous objectives in my half.
3. Enough/tough units to take and hold a second objective in the opponent's half.

Regimental HQ+Hydra+Commissar 550pts
Mech Infantry+Hydra+Commissar 450pts
3xBaneblades+Hydra+Commissar 550pts

Sentinels 100pts
Sentinels 100pts
Storm Troopers+Chimera+Commissar 300pts
Storm Troopers+Valkyries+Commissar 350pts
Shadowsword 200pts

Warhound 275pts
Thunderbolts 150pts
Emperor 150pts

Hmmm...

Feels cut to the bone, 10 consistent activations, all it takes is for something to break or fail to activate to leave me trailing badly. Swap the Storm Troopers with Valks for a second Shadowsword and a Hydra battery for an extra activation. Drop the Baneblades for an Infantry Company and a second Warhound, no points for an extra Hydra on the Infantry though, hopefully as most aircraft have a mix of AP/AT they can weather anyone who tries to air strafe them, otherwise deploying them to minimise the amount of B2B contact is key for if/when they get engaged.

Regimental HQ+Hydra+Commissar 550pts
Mech Infantry+Hydra+Commissar 450pts
Infantry Company+Commissar 250pts

Sentinels 100pts
Sentinels 100pts
Storm Troopers+Chimera+Commissar 300pts
Shadowsword+Commissar 200pts
Shadowsword+Commissar 200pts

Warhound 275pts
Warhound 275pts
Thunderbolts 150pts
Emperor 150pts

Storm Troopers are there to remain in my half to clear someone off an objective they control or to contest them, honestly the Valks would be better for this due to Disrupt on 8BP and 4 more fast scouts, but points must. But all these guys have to do is not be broken by the end of turn 3 and within 15cm of either my blitz or one other objective. Basically the same deal for the Shadowswords, they must be within 15cm of one of the objectives in my half, unbroken by the end of turn 3, two of them with Commissars are fairly likely to survive to get there, send them both at the same objective so they have to get through 2 separate fearless DC3 4+RA war engines to stop me contesting.

Position your objectives in your opponent's half in a position to make a spearhead to their blitz. The Mech and Reg HQ and Infantry Co. move together, potentially intermingled, they take and hold the center, making sure one of the objectives is completely under your control and likely sitting on OW with at least one of them from turn 2. Wait for Turn 3 and the spaceship and hope it clear away whatever sits on and around the enemy Blitz. Then drive one of the Mech Co. to sit on the enemy blitz, back up this drive to take and hold it by throwing in the two warhounds, the sentinels or march the Hydras, same for holding the central objective.

All that matters is having one unbroken unit within 15cm of the enemy blitz and one other objective and making sure they don't have the same. The rest of the army exists to contest your blitz and one other objective in your half.

I...I'm not sure. It seems so easy to stymie this list. I mean...just don't deploy anything on your Blitz until the Emperor has either turned up or the guard player has been forced to move one of the Mech onto the Blitz. Focus on clearing away the smaller units like sentinels and warhounds to strip activations. This Guard list doesn't have anything on it's own Blitz until the end of turn 3 either.

What have other people come up with to exploit the Emperor?

Other options.

Reg HQ+Hyd+SniperCom 575pts
3xBBlade+Hyd+Com 550pts
3xBBlade+Hyd+Com 550pts

Sentinels 100pts
Sentinels 100pts
Rough Riders 150pts
Shadowsword+Com 200pts
Shadowsword+Com 200pts

Thunderbolts 150pts
Warhound 275pts
Emperor 150pts

The idea here is the opposite of the first, the armoured column steams ahead to wrest control of objectives while the Emperor instead fires on your own Blitz end of T3 to chase anything sitting on it away. I suspect it will stall out badly.

I think we're going to need some testing. The Hellhounds are nice and the extra Inspiring helps but I'm not paying 100pts for them. Anything that feels confident enough to engage a mechanised infantry company isn't going to be deterred by an extra Inspiring and if I am engaging with a mech infantry company and need that extra Inspiring to win then I probably shouldn't be engaging.

Perhaps the Hellhounds could be 4 for 100pts rather than adding an extra rule to them? I know, I know, 3's the magic number.

Garrisoning 250pts of artillery or, potentially, 600pts seems like something you'd only do if it was a core part of your strategy. You'd probably want to babysit them with something that has AA which means at the least another 300pts (inf co+hydra) garrisoned alongside. If you want them to OW they need a direct line of sight meaning they can be shot at in turn. They'll be an interesting one to try but I suspect that they'll pretty quickly stop Garrisoning for being too vulnerable combined with high threat.

Sigh, one a game a week is just not enough time to test everything out...

Right, tried some stuff out.

Used the Emperor, Storm Troopers in Chimera and the new Baneblades at 20cm and no crit effect.

I had an aggressive plan, drive the Mech HQ, Mech Inf, 3xBaneblades and Storm Troopers straight up the middle toward their blitz, place my two objective in a triangle as close to the blitz and each other as possible and flood that area of the board with armour and bodies.

The Emperor was to be used as a tidy up by firing around my blitz on turn 3 to chase away anyone who thought they could capture it, something like a sentinel or a vulture would then flit in and hold it/contest it.

Overall...Emperor I would leave. 150pts for an extra set of Thunderbolts or another set of Hydra or something would have been more consistently useful and trying to use it to attack their blitz seemed somewhat pointless as they were a very mobile army (dark eldar) and they essentially weren't going to have a blitz guard anyway.

The Chimera for the Storm troopers were...alright I suppose. Valkyries would have been better and definitely worth the 50pts extra to get them (would have swapped my rough riders for sentinels and spent the 50pts on taking Valkyries instead) because then they would not have had any concerns about making a combined engagement and because their rockets would have done the job of the engagement for them. Having the option doesn't hurt however.

The Baneblades extra speed was handy (but I misdeployed them so they wasted that extra speed getting to where they needed to be anyway) but the biggest bestest thing about the change is the no crit effect. Without that I know that they can take a LOT of punishment. It takes, on average, 12 hits to destroy a baneblade without the chance of a lucky crit, a full company+commissar takes on average 36 hits to destroy. Having that consistency and reliability is something I quite like - they will be able to weather the storm or take vastly more resources coordinated to remove them. The 20cm speed is nice but didn't make much difference in this game. I like the No Crit, I would drop 20cm speed and replace that with making the Bane Cannon 2x shots. That allows it to drive forwards into the open (sitting on an objective?) and as a a firebase to launch attacks from, gives good ranged firepower and is mobile cover for those valuable things (like a hydra battery) to hide behind.

Thinking about the Bombards, I would raise the speed up again to 20cm and increase their gun range to 50cm, so they can sustain for 100cm. The way I see it the three artillery all serve a different purpose, the bombard kills more (due to ignore cover), the manticore breaks everything and the basilisks keep up constant firepower, this purpose is spoiled for the bombard because it simply lacks the range to do its thing in the way you would want to use it because it can't hit the enemy deployment zone straight away.

This looks cool and promising.

BB no crit seems to be an unusual way to lift them up, since every other WE have something drawback. Nevertheless this will make more stable coys (as singles are too easy to break to make a difference) a cheaper but slower option to go armor heavy.
Overall it is interesting, and I'm keen to try it out.

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I dig the FF enhancements to Hellhounds. That'll have knock on effects to cadians but probably in a positive fas

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