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Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0

 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:31 pm 
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Yeah I'm watching to see what people make of it, particularly gurus like Richard. My thoughts (though no expert) were:
- Upgrade changes probably still unpopular as activations are king. Possible some might take baneblades plus tanks upgrade as alternative BTS to (and same price as) LR co. Hellhounds and sniper on blitz defense infantry co for 45cm range clipping assault now with +2
- I like baneblades and bombard changes - hope they survive and look forward to using these units more effectively. Bombards ought to stay very different to manticore let's not just increase the range. overwatch bombards will still be very vulnerable if positioned on forwards obj but placed near the blitz could be a useful counter against termies, necron phalanxes and falcons doubling and popping up on turn 1. Baneblades deserve no criticals. If you had to modify it I would go with critical = loses another point of damage on a 4+
- emperor ship change makes sense. 50 points less and 1+ makes the existing tactic slightly more viable but still unappealing use of points except perhaps in bigger games.


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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:34 pm 
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I've played a few games with steel legion and a lot against them and IMO they aren't an army that needs boosting (this is supported by their win %). These are ALL boosts.

Baneblade - how do you justify to an opponent that it is quicker than any other SHT and has a better critical. Especially when the general trend is to more severe crits.

Emperor - no other list gets 3 templates on a 1 for only 150 points.

Bombard do the SL really need more OW options?

Hellhounds - what justification is their for inspiring? Are all flame weapons going to have it? For me it starts a creep towards giving units inspiring for no good reason just boosting them artificially.

Taken together they boost the prevalent list design of mech infantry assault as now before BMs they can be on a +4 (double inspiring, double outnumber). Also together the changes really boost a very defensive playstyle of OW infantry Co (again with double inspirjng) protecting cheaper artillery further protected by garrisoned artillery, with no need to threaten the blitz until the end of turn 3 in the knowledge that the Emperor can clear that out.

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:35 am 
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Rug wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Space Marine Battle barge has a 3 template, 1+ barrage? Granted it's 350pts but it can drop 15 Death-wind drop pods and 60 marines too! (14 in a 4k list!)
.

350 pts - 150 pts

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:08 am 
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No as I'd never leave them until turn 3 as they are needed to remove activations and particularly flak and artillery. I can't see why a SL player wouldn't take one especially at 4k.

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:06 am 
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I am open minded about changes - overwatching bombards, zippy baneblades etc. The one thing I'd say is that you may - only my impression - be concentrating a little too much on "how much is X used". The thing is, this is not necessarily a good barometer for points values and unit power.

For example upgrades. For me there are only limited times I would take an upgrade:
- where it changes the role of the formation from one that is unsuitable to one that can do something useful (e.g. the base formation is crap)
- where I have spare points and it is really cheap (generally 25 points)
- where I need to bump the cost to prevent having 2 BTS formations (again generally 25 points)
- where the upgrade is drastically undercosted
At 3k and with the current (and long standing) meta of activations, upgrades for formations that are already good are always going to be rare, right up until the point where they are too good for their points.

Likewise units that have specific roles, like spaceships, and the original Eldar cobra. There may not be anything wrong with the unit or its cost, but it is too situational, or too niche, or too far down the list of "I need this in my army to accomplish X". Again, you're not going to see them at 3k until they are so good for their points that they beat out cheap filler units. i.e. it doesn't matter how good they are, I will only include them when they are cheap enough to not impact on the stuff I need in my army. If you make good but situational stuff cheap, suddenly you can risk creating polarised un-fun games. Spaceships are not particularly fun. Drop armies can be very binary already, but at least they can still be fun for the opponent because some marines come streaking down to the table where they can be fought. So the solution for units like battleships is not to make them cheap, but to fix their unreliability (i.e. slow & steady). Taking it to the extreme, imagine a mega-nuke weapon. On a roll of a 6 in turn 4, you insta-win. What is the appropriate points value? If you make it 2000 points it won't get taken, but the problem is not the points, it is the weapon.

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:25 am 
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Rug wrote:
Something those clever London lot have done with the EUK stats:

https://sites.google.com/site/epicarmag ... c-uk-tiers

This is why I'm not too worried about small boosts.

Here is the data the analysis is based on, 489 Steel Legion games!

http://epic-uk.co.uk/ukepicachampionship/racevrace.php

Is there a thread for this anywhere? With more cleverness, it should be possible to adjust for players' own records. i.e. you adjust each individual result according to how it compares to the player's own average. i.e. lists are better if players win MORE/lose LESS with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:33 pm 
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After heavy thinking I am going to side with Steve. The Inspiring is simply too much.
Overall, the Win-Draw-Loss quoata seems solid - roughly a third each.
There is much variation on building lists with Steel Legion and you can go in complete different ways with this list. There aint even "The one true list" as with the Gorgon Death Star with Krieg. And SL is much much older - still, no "perfect" list. And thats a plus.

Dont think that Steel Legion should change at all, think it is fine as is.

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:13 pm 
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Rug wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
No as I'd never leave them until turn 3 as they are needed to remove activations and particularly flak and artillery. I can't see why a SL player wouldn't take one especially at 4k.


So you can get more use out of your own spacecraft than the SL player gets from their Emperor? The Emperor is broken, but not enough to use your own less powerful spacecraft to totally deny use of the Emperor by your SL opponent?

If the SL player was going to take a Battle Titan and still wants to squeeze in Scout Tirans and Thunderbolts there aren't going to be the points for a spacecraft. The other thing to consider is that the higher the points total of the game, the more likely an opponent is to take their own space craft giving them the opportunity to block the Emperor.


Show me where I've said it's broken? I just pointed out that it's cheaper for its capabilities than any other spacecraft.

I was responding to your assertion that in all the games I'd taken a spacecraft I'd have used it in turn 3 to block the Emperor. Which I wouldn't do as in those lists the spaceships are needed earlier on. That's not to say the emperor is poor just because I wouldn't alter my whole battle plan to combat it. It's presence would still alter deployment and how units were used in turn 2 knowing that the barrage was coming.

So I couldn't take a battle titan, t bolts and emperor, I could still take the better option of 2 warhounds, 2 sets of t bolts and the emperor.

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