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Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.

 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:38 pm 
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Did a 1500 point minigeddon, had 3 activations lol, however, they faired well against eldar but not against Armour. Only way is to debus the infantry after a move, shoot but that leaves them exposed (granted cover save from vehicle), 1 Army Coy with Crassus broke after being taken out by Macro weapons and remained broken from turn 1 :/


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:00 pm 
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i'd leverage the relatively high speed of the crassus to march and disembark into position/cover and use the RA to soak up hits (similar to DKoK companies do) when unable. Don't forget that being a WE it can barge units out of the way. The biggest issue I find is that the company should have an additional stand (7 standard inf per crassus so we should have 13 guard units) and that it's still over costed slightly (SL Mech Coy == 20 hits while this is at 17 hits for the same price and a slower transport than chimeras).

Another zany thought is that the combination of the Crassus' over charged engines and they way they get used by their crews they evidently crash into the enemy position and disgorge the troops directly into combat. Basically it's used more aggressively than chimeras are traditionally in mech companies. Anyone thought of trying out Infiltrate and +25 points on the unit? That's a trade off I'd consider for the lack of DC (and the fact that EA still lacks a good rule representative of a transport designed to dismount into combat directly - Land Raiders I look at you in disgust as well)

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:52 am 
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I've been doing some number crunching on the list, and have noticed it's difficult to make interesting lists due to the sheer expense of the majority of options, both core and support.

The first thing I feel we should look at, is the cost of the Crassus. Compared to the Chimera, the Crassus seems an undesirable option.

    Mech Inf Coy - 7x Chimera
    7 DC
    7x AP5+/AT6+
    7x AP5+
    Speed: 30cm
    Upgrade cost: 150pts

    Heavy Mech Inf Coy - 2 Crassus
    4 DC (Reinforced)
    8x AP5+
    Speed: 25cm
    Upgrade cost: 150pts

    DKoK Coy - 2 Gorgon - Included for comparison as a similar SH transport
    4 DC (Reinforced)
    4x AP5+
    2x AP4+
    Speed: 20cm (Walker)
    Upgrade cost: 125pts

The Chimera are clearly the better option for transporting an infantry company; they have greater AP firepower, have AT capability, and are faster than the Crassus. The only thing the Crassus seems to have going for it over the Chimera, is the reinforced armour. Having said that, it only takes 2 successful hits to half the effective firepower of the formation, whereas the Chimera will still be putting out a potential 10 AP5+ shots after taking 2 casualties. In addition, the Chimera can take almost double the number of blast markers before the formation is broken.

As a result of this comparison, I feel the cost of the Heavy Mechanised Company should be reduced to 350pts. This would mean the effective upgrade cost for 2 Crassus would be +100pts, (50 each), a price I feel is more than justified when compared to the +125pts for the Gorgon which are also a more desirable option.

Changes to Core Formations

    Heavy Mechanised Company
    1x Commander, 12x Infantry, & 2x Crassus - 350pts

As discussed, replace the current Heavy Mech Coy with the above entry.

    Heavy Tank Company
    1x Macharius Command, & 2x Macharius - 350pts (points sourced from DKoK list)

I also feel that the Macharius should be moved out of the support options and into core, allowing a bit more diversity when building the list. If there was concern about the list ceasing to be a Heavy Mechanised force, the limitation could be added that you cannot take more Heavy Tank Companies than Heavy Mechanised Companies.

Changes to Company Upgrades

    Add supreme Commander - +100pts

This would allow us to remove the current Regimental HQ option, as the only difference between the two mechanised infantry formations is the addition of the bloke with the big hat. By separating this out into an upgrade, it also gives the option for a Macharius to be taken as the Supreme Commander.

Changes to Support Formations

    Heavy Tank Platoon
    3x Leman Russ Destroyers - 200pts
    Upgrade 3x LRD to 3x Macharius Omegas - + 100pts

Replace Omega Heavy Tank Platoon with Anti-Tank Platoon (from Ulani list). This gives an AT option that isn't MW (there's already plenty of that), and adds a support company that costs less that 400pts making it slightly easier to build interesting lists.

    Storm Trooper Platoon
    6x Storm Troopers & Crassus - 200pts
    Replace Crassus with 3x Valkyries - +75pts

Modify Storm Trooper Platoon to include reduced cost Crassus, and add a Valkyrie transport option to give the list some chance of grabbing the Blitz. It's not entirely unreasonable to suggest that a heavy mechanised force would have a measure of air support available. It also would remain a reduced strength unit, hopefully this will stop them becoming an auto-include.

    Heavy Artillery Battery
    3x Praetor Assault Launcers OR 3x Dominus Bombards - 450pts

In order to clean up the list options, I feel that the Heavy Artillery Battery and the Heavy Bombard Battery should be merged into one entry. They both have the same point cost, and have no unique upgrades available.

Changes to Titan Legion Allies

    Warhound Titan
    Warhound Titan - VMB & PBG - 275

    Warhound Titan Pack
    2x Warhound Titans - VMB & PBG - 500

I understand the intent on wanting to reduce the access to MW in the list, but this change would mean this is the only list that doesn't follow the standard weapons loadout for titan allies. If this list is ever going to make approved status, this is something I suspect we will have to move on.

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Looking forward to actually getting some game time in, so I can properly test this list. But in the meantime if people could at least have a think over some of the things I've suggested above? I realise some of these changes might go against what you feel the list should be, but I'm looking forward to constructive discussion to build a list that might eventually reach approved status :)

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:59 pm 
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Thanks for the well thought out feedback GBO.
I'd come to a similar conclusion about the Crassus; I'll put them in at 50pts in the next PDF. I like your idea about adding the Macharius to the core too, as it's going to get light-on up there.

Good idea on the combined artillery entry too.

Another option might be for the omegas to be an upgrade or add-on to the Macharius formation, rather than a formation on their own (or as well as). That is probably how they would run, as a support unit in a formation rather than a formation on their own.

Anyway, I'll do up a summary of the changes I'm planning for the next PDF and seek people's input.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:18 am 
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Here is a draft I've had sitting un-posted for a couple of weeks. I'll post it here with a couple of edits to let people know what I'm thinking with this list.

Wall of text warning!
Executive Summary: the Crassus Infantry Formations need a boost.
Cut to the summary at the bottom if you can't be bothered! :D

The following is a theoretical firefight between a Steel Legion formation in Chimeras and a Heavy Mechanised formation in Crassus, where both sides are all able to shoot, and are not in any cover, with the Chimeras/Crassus tanking the first hits.

Steel Legion:
12 infantry + commander inflict 4.329 hits
7 chimeras inflict 2.331 hits

After saves (4 on Crassus) = 3.66 unsaved hits (1 on Crassus).
Heavy Mech Remaining = 14.33 units.

Heavy Mechanised:
12 infantry + commander inflict 4.329 hits
2 Crassus inflict 2.0 hits
After saves (all on Chimeras) = 4.22 unsaved hits.
Steel Legion Remaining=15.8 units

So heavy mech inflict 0.5 more unsaved hits but are outnumbered at the end by 1.5 (or there abouts).

The Chimera formation have the other benefits too like larger formation size, less prone to losing half their formation when one tank blows up, have an AT ability and are faster.

The big negative in my mind (as has been pointed out before) is all eggs in one DC2 basket (well, half the eggs) rather than the firefight ability. Lose a Crassus full of troops and the formation is toast.
I'm thinking of removing the crit from the Crassus completely (which will help 17% of the time on the first unsaved hit inflicted, so not much!).
I don't really want to mess with the Crassus stats, as they are what they are. It isn't really big enough to warrant DC3.

Note that some upgrades REALLY help them out too. Tanking a few hits onto some LRBT's significantly reduces the formations vulnerability (at the price of -5cm movement, plus 125 points) and means that people need to dedicate a fair bit of shooting to take out the Russes before having a go with the TK shots they have.
Cheaper upgrade costs for better synergy might help (I have already shaved 25 points off the Russ upgrade for this reason), though that doesn't improve the core formation, so I'll try the cheaper Crassus too.

The Fire Support Platoon was a bit of an unintentional Easter egg hidden in the list. You get another Crassus with three empty transport slots. There is also another empty slot in one of the other Crassus. Put the largely empty one at the front of the formation with three normal infantry in it, and distribute the heavy support units in the other two Crassus with the other infantry. If you lose the one on point you only lose three infantry that were in it (so only 6 BM). A gamey and unsportsmanlike tactic, and surely not one distinguished Epic players would attempt!

As for AA, I'm still thinking about different options. The flak upgrade is largely in there for people who don't have praetor models or proxies yet, and is probably on borrowed time.

For the Sky-Killer platoon:
A formation of two, with the Pilum warheads being:
R60cm 2xAT5+/AA4+ 200 points.
2x AA hits per turn (so AA is the same as 3x hydra), more resilient than 3x hydra, so fits the list meta of bigger, stronger, fewer.
And/Or
Run the Sky-Killer as a 0-1 upgrade for all of the DC2 formations in the list (Praetor, Dominus, Macharius, Omega and Core Infantry). Easier for me to balance but a no brainier upgrade that would cover the whole army under a reliable AA umbrella.
I do like the idea of a stand alone formation for this army as I think it suits the theme more (formations of big specialists).

Some other random points:
Dominus have 2BP each, (not 6!) and don't have slow firing. As it is a triple bombard, in theory it COULD be 3bp each without slow firing. Like Jimmy said earlier, it's hard not to go OTT with this unit. What do people think about that?

I thought Ogryns combined with the 4+RA of the Crassus would make the infantry companies too resilient in engagements. Perhaps that's a good thing (given the comparison above), and suits this list. 3x ogryns plus one Crassus would be about 125 points.

Formation and upgrade points for things like Leman Russ and Macharius are based on other approved lists.
I'm reluctant to change them, but I did reduce the cost of the Russ upgrade by 25 points (when compared to the Steel Legion upgrade, which is 50 points cheaper than the Krieg one, probably due to relative transport speeds) to try and encourage it to be taken.

I note in the new Krieg list that the Macharius formation can be upgraded to 4 which makes them pretty interesting and is something I shall steal.

Centaurs are a great way to get fast Stormtroopers so I haven't really considered Valkyries.

I deliberately left out single warhounds and took the plasma off the paired formation. Because I wanted activation count to be fairly hard to manage in this list, and macro can be spammed too easily with plasma warhounds and the omegas. I may have over reacted in doing this.


Summary.

So the next draft's changes are looking something like this:
Reduce the Crassus points from 75 to 50 each (13x infantry and 2x Crassus = 350 points) with either no Chimera or +50 point replacement Chimeras option.

Possibly Make an Infantry Platoon upgrade:
6x infantry and 1 Crassus for 150 points.

Change the Fire Support Platoon upgrade to:
6x Heavy Support and 1 Crassus for 200.

Possibly add an Ogryn Platoon upgrade:
3x Ogryns and 1 Crassus for 125.

Change the Sky-Killer Platoon: Formation of two. 200 points.
Pilum warheads: R60cm 2xAT5+/AA4+

Change the Dominus' Heavy Bombard to 3BP (so the unsuppressed formation of three has 9bp).

Change the Heavy Tank Platoon to a Company.

Make the SC an 0-1 upgrade.

Remove all footsloggers.

Possibly add in a Chimera Infantry Platoon.

Thoughts?

Also thanks for the feedback everyone! I feel like this list is developing nicely thanks to some quality input.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:37 pm 
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Matty_C wrote:

Note that some upgrades REALLY help them out too. Tanking a few hits onto some LRBT's significantly reduces the formations vulnerability (at the price of -5cm movement, plus 125 points) and means that people need to dedicate a fair bit of shooting to take out the Russes before having a go with the TK shots they have.


You can always choose WE as targets, even if there are other AV in front. So you can't use LRs to shield the Crassus. Macharius would work, but they are even slower.

Matty_C wrote:
So the next draft's changes are looking something like this:
Reduce the Crassus points from 75 to 50 each (13x infantry and 2x Crassus = 350 points) with either no Chimera or +50 point replacement Chimeras option.


I knew that was the proper cost for the Crassus ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:17 pm 
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Ah, I forgot about that Bruno, good point!

I thought you might like the adjusted points ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:22 pm 
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Alright, well assuming no changes to the points (other than the Heavy Mech Coy) I'll give this list a spin once my Crassus proxies turn up.

Core Formations

    Heavy Mechanised Companny - 350

    Heavy Tank Company - 325

Support Formations

    Salamander Scout Platoon - 125
    - add command (+25)

    Superheavy Tank Platoon - 200
    - Shadowsword

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:44 pm 
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Sounds good SBO. I'll post an updated PDF later this week. Hopefully I will get a little more feedback from people regarding the proposed changes before then.



Edit:
Version 4 of the draft is up. It seems I forgot to (or didn't get around to) uploading version 3. Oops.

A summary of the changes:
Crassus is now 50 pts each, chimeras cost more, footsloggers are gone.
Sky-Killers are a formation of 2 and pilum warheads are slightly different now.
Infantry platoon and ogryn platoon upgrades added to help buff the infantry co.
Heavy support platoon increased to 6 stands (I'll need to make another one now).
Macharius tanks moved to the core.
Tidied up a few things, like combined the Superheavy artillery entry, made the SC an upgrade.
Heavy siege bombard is now 3bp.
Added in some tank hunter options in the form of a tank hunter platoon. There is also an Executioner option in the leman russ platoon now.
0-1 single warhound, but still running the inferno gun at this stage.

Things people have suggested that I haven't done yet:
Valkyries.
Plasma on the warhounds.
Special rules to help the crassus (infiltrate).
I am planning to try and get some more playtesting in before playing with these.
There might be more, but I think thats most of it.

Feedback and constructive criticism is very welcome!

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:41 pm 
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Damnit, now I have to paint some loyalist Valdors! <3

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:11 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Damnit, now I have to paint some loyalist Valdors! <3


You could always send them to me, then your problem is my problem! It's a service I'm happy to provide to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:35 am 
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Any movement or rather stat adjust to the Dominus Bombard? as for Proxies I'm using the Vanguard Miniatures - can post pics in a min


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:54 am 
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Praetorian Guard Heavy Mech Vehicles (Praetorian Pattern) still in paint but WiP

Top Left - Right:

Macharius Omega (turret from Gregsters Lab, Chassis Churchillian from Vanguard)
Skyfire/Praetor Launcher (Vanguard)

Bottom Left - Right:

Macharius Command (Heavy Bolter) (Vanguard chassis/Gregsters Lab turret)
Dominus Bombard (Vanguard)
Crassus (Vanguard)


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HMIG.png
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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:16 pm 
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Hey Junkstar, nice models! Those Vanguard models are made for a list like this! Or is it vice versa? ;)

The latest stats for the dominus are in the 0.4 PDF draft back in the first post, but are:
Move 15cm SV4+ cc6+ ff5+ dc2 reinforced armour
2x heavy bolters
1x Heavy Siege Bombard range:45cm 3BP ignore cover, indirect
A squadron of 3 is 450 points.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:21 am 
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Matty_C wrote:
Hey Junkstar, nice models! Those Vanguard models are made for a list like this! Or is it vice versa? ;)

The latest stats for the dominus are in the 0.4 PDF draft back in the first post, but are:
Move 15cm SV4+ cc6+ ff5+ dc2 reinforced armour
2x heavy bolters
1x Heavy Siege Bombard range:45cm 3BP ignore cover, indirect
A squadron of 3 is 450 points.


except fluff wise they have x3 siege mortars each. Yep I believe they were Vanguards Version of the Heavy Stuff for IG

At least not slow firing which is good


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